General Category => Simplexes with Non-Original Engines => Topic started by: ndian22 on January 28, 2015, 01:03:29 PM

Title: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 28, 2015, 01:03:29 PM
Starting out with what I (now) think is a 1957 Simplex automatic frame...no engine or drive train, with the exception of rear wheel & shieve. Frame looks straight and no rust or cracks detected. I have a Honda CG150 clone/ 5 speed on order with both kick and electric start & am praying it doesn't get tied up on the docks at Port of L.A. strike.

Vertical engine space is an issue, but since the original tank is missing I'll hope for the best and just wing it. I've been building cars, trucks and bikes for about 50 years now, but this is my first Simplex. I would like those familiar with Simplex cycles who see my resto-mod to recognize it's original pedigree while discovering & counting the changes made.

Among the major changes will be a chain drive featuring a large rear sprocket, in order to keep top end speed down. Being an older fellow I've adjusted my pace to more coincide with a walk rather than a run, yet I'll enjoy being able to cross highways and not be accused of attempted suicide by Peterbilt!

My time frame on the build, if the engine comes on a timely basis, is late March or early April. We'll see.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on January 28, 2015, 07:28:20 PM
Ok Rick w/a C, is this GC150 with the transmission together? Or is it two separate components? I've been thinking of using a small atv motor and trans assy. but the frame needs a inch or two more in length. Oh by the way Howdy from Texas. Do you have a picture of the style of motor you as re using?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Sonrisers on January 28, 2015, 07:48:35 PM
Can't wait to see the out come. Post a lot of pictures.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 29, 2015, 08:20:41 PM
Ok Rick w/a C, is this GC150 with the transmission together? Or is it two separate components? I've been thinking of using a small atv motor and trans assy. but the frame needs a inch or two more in length. Oh by the way Howdy from Texas. Do you have a picture of the style of motor you as re using?
Greetings from Indian Territory. Spent many years based in Houston, loved Texas but don't miss the big city. Don't have photo of the engine...it's a CG150 with integral 5 speed a clone of the Honda thats used in the Brazilian manufactured Titan motorcycles and also used in the current California Scooter that is a design based on the old Mustang motorcycle. I don't have measurements on the 150cc but the 200cc 5 speed is listed as 20"h x16"L x 14"w, the 200cc is also an integral 5 speed design.

These motors are vertical cylinder design with 12v electric start and kick start. Kw conversion comes out to about  13 hp @7000 rpm if my information source is correct. Shipping weight is about 80lbs. Check you tube for vids of the California scooter and you'll see the design in a small frame (they use 150cc, 200cc & 250cc 5 speeds in their small cycle builds. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on January 29, 2015, 09:44:41 PM
Well Rick w/a C you need to give up some info. I have looked on utube found a vid of some guys riding aroung some airplane hangers. Not a bad looking motor assy. if I saw the right style. As for Houston you carry yourself as if you lived on the southside closer to Pasadena or maybe north of the dome. Me myself I'm northside or was northside till I momed west to Brenham. So when did you live there?  ???
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on January 29, 2015, 09:45:59 PM
And what website did you find a motor for sale on?  ???
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: kartjockey on January 30, 2015, 02:23:39 AM
http://californiascooterco.com/csc_motorcycles.htm
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 30, 2015, 03:24:35 AM
Looks very similar to the GY-150 style engines used in Redcat, Flywing, etc...On/off road clone bikes.  (I bought/sold one last year) 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 30, 2015, 12:26:16 PM
Oil lamp good catch, Based in Houston area between 1974 & 1994 initially lived in Pasadena, cedar street,  latter across Gulf Fwy. off Telephone Rd. Tough area, mostly ship channel industry workers big Bandido MC territory, no problem if you rode independant without colors.  Caught some breaks and moved out to Bearcreek area N. of I-10 west ....before selling my company (manufacturing) in 1992 I lived off Memorial & Chimney Rock (Tanglewood addition). Houston was good to me but I longed for small town life back in Oklahoma & here I've retired & remained since 1994.  Love Brenham, Tx. good choice!

The industrial airpark Youtube video you watched shows what I believe is a 150cc like the one I have coming. The engine I have coming is one of several ordered by an aquaintance of mine direct from Taiwan thus my concern with the dock strike in L.A. I have no idea of the details involved on his end and the quoted price delivered was under $500. without any front money from me. Even though CDI, carb etc. are included the misc. gaskets, exhaust, voltage reg., battery etc. will probably involve another $200/$300.

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on January 30, 2015, 03:02:57 PM
Holy crap on a cracker! I was just taking a stab at your past residents,shoot I must be psychic. Dang, only if I could see the up coming lotto numbers that would be great. Well Rick w/ a C you never know we could of crossed paths back in the day. Spooky isn't it.  :o well keep up updated with the on going project. What other parts are you looking for so we can keep a eye out for them.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 30, 2015, 06:21:36 PM
Carryall the GY-150's I've seen all have a jug which lays more horizontal, making it quite long in comparison to the vertcal jug design of the CG or CB 150 Honda engine. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 30, 2015, 06:32:38 PM
Carryall the GY-150's I've seen all have a jug which lays more horizontal, making it quite long in comparison to the vertcal jug design of the CG or CB 150 Honda engine.

Oil lamp, If you rode on the North side might have played pool or hung out at Gunny's west of old Spring quite co to see a couple hundred bikes stacked around that old shack on a Sunday afternoon...nice riding in those days on up in Montgomery county to lake Conroe and beyond, before everything got civilized! Kid sister has lived in old Spring for over 30 years...lot of good memories for sure. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on January 31, 2015, 07:39:24 AM
Myself I never made it there. The wife remembers that place. Ever spend time running the clubs on Westheimer 79 - 81 ?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 31, 2015, 08:23:34 AM
This is the on/off road clone bike engine I was referring to... I bought for $350 and re-sold for $700 last year.  (kinda fun but lightweight for real offroad use).  It was a Redcat label but is a generic engine with 5 speed transmission. I've seen/worked on quite a few. (sorry for poor quality photos as my computer skills in resizing photos are nill) I've come across these engine in a couple of different products and are generally a decent build but the biggest problem is poor quality fasteners/hardware. (soft)  Most issues can be remedied with upgraded bolts, etc...They now make them with larger displacements also. (200-300cc) Note: I forgot when looking up parts, it was listed under CG-150 engine parts designation although the manufacturer listing was GY-150#, thus the confusion.  That's what happens when your dealing between Taiwan and/or Chinese made stuff.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on January 31, 2015, 10:53:00 AM
It seems to me all this talk about these engines is a moot point if they really are 20" tall.  A simplex has about 15" of room maximum under the gas tank, and that is if you remove the frame member that holds the tank in. 

To fit one of these engines you would have to really increase the size of the frame by stretching the two front down tubes and the back bone.  I see this as doable, while still keeping the character of the Simplex, but would be quite a bit of work.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 01, 2015, 02:34:00 PM
This is the on/off road clone bike engine I was referring to... I bought for $350 and re-sold for $700 last year.  (kinda fun but lightweight for real offroad use).  It was a Redcat label but is a generic engine with 5 speed transmission. I've seen/worked on quite a few. (sorry for poor quality photos as my computer skills in resizing photos are nill) I've come across these engine in a couple of different products and are generally a decent build but the biggest problem is poor quality fasteners/hardware. (soft)  Most issues can be remedied with upgraded bolts, etc...They now make them with larger displacements also. (200-300cc) Note: I forgot when looking up parts, it was listed under CG-150 engine parts designation although the manufacturer listing was GY-150#, thus the confusion.  That's what happens when your dealing between Taiwan and/or Chinese made stuff.
That would seem to be the puppy I plan to use Carryall. I've also seen these used in offroad bikes & have much first hand experience with the poor quality fasteners and hardware on some Chinese motors and products in general (often refered to as butter bolt grade) I build motorized bicycles also along with hotrods and offroad vehicles so have ordered a lot of stuff from the east, some good others no so much. Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 01, 2015, 02:38:10 PM
Feel free to post some pictures of your other projects that are not simplex.  We don't desciminate around here.  Lol.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 01, 2015, 03:12:09 PM
It seems to me all this talk about these engines is a moot point if they really are 20" tall.  A simplex has about 15" of room maximum under the gas tank, and that is if you remove the frame member that holds the tank in. 

To fit one of these engines you would have to really increase the size of the frame by stretching the two front down tubes and the back bone.  I see this as do-able, while still keeping the character of the Simplex, but would be quite a bit of work.
Hey Rick your correct about limited space, it's a tight vertical fit. I've put bigger power plants in smaller spaces and it is a lot of work! The 20" height was for a 200cc motor and I'm hoping the 150cc is a bit shorter,...it's a gamble on my part as I really would like to keep the original wheel base &  frame height as is, but if the motor is much too large I'll probably opt out for a HF 160cc for my Simplex resto-mod and use the CG-150 on a drop loop bicycle build.  I remain optimistic that the CG-150 will work, yet I've been wrong before. Thanks for your input! 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 01, 2015, 03:22:31 PM
Sweet bike . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/thumbs.gif)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 01, 2015, 06:47:47 PM
Thanks for your comment Pete, I really like building the little bikes...so light, simple and lively. Takes me back to an earlier day...you'll never see fuel injection (except mechanical) on any of my builds. Bike or automotive. Old school all the way.

I got to thinking about the 15" clearance that Rick S. mentioned & did some measuring and digging in my parts bins and came up with an idea which should work with even a 20" height and keep the main frame in tact. Remove lower tank support, remove existing motor mount plate. This gains some room, but necessitates building MC style motor mounts to the Simplex frame without using a plate. Need more than this gain.

Then I dug up two brand new peanut tanks from motorized bike builds. Same size as is shown mounted on my Indian Scout moto-bicycle in previous post. They are 2 liter size,quite small and fit almost as if they were made for the Simplex in the allocated tank space. One filler cap on each side of the spring bar, be quite simple to join together and mount in stock tank location. First trial fit showed 19" between the bottom of the tank's and the motor plate. Only two of us in the shop today, during the week probably would have had several "loafers" hanging around, so holding them in place and taking photos wasn't something I wanted to mess with...but I'll snap some photos this week to help you understand what I'm talking about. The two tanks actually look good in the stock tank position.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 03, 2015, 05:18:33 PM
I've just gone through some photos in the gallery taken at Portland 2012. Great shots & looks like a good time for sure. After seeing the photos of the Simplex with a Gravely T-head engine (40+cubic inches) I'm not worried at all about mounting a 150cc 5speed in my little frame! To top it all I also saw a Mustang motorcyce on Youtube with an Ariel square four engine mounted (looked awesome) as did the Simplex /Gravely. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 05, 2015, 08:31:48 PM
Ordering & gathering parts. Sta-tru steel wheels came in,12ga.stainless steel spokes, chrome steel rim 2.215" x26" disc up-front & coaster brake rear. Really heavy duty I've used them on other builds as well as Workman.  I like them both. I'm mounting Duro flame 2.4" on both. I'm planning on running a bike bottom bracket & peddles with wide crank & reduction gear on motor side. I also plan on running 2 peanut tanks side by side in the stock Simplex location which gives about 20" vertical space for the CG-150.They actually fill the stock tank location well & hold 4 liters total. I also received a 210mm 3/8" axle for the rear wheel, along with two thread-on 14mm axle adaptors for the half inch rear drops which I'll bring out to 14mm also & use BMX style wheel adjusters. I've also ordered a 58 tooth sprocket & sprocket hub adaptor. My design plan is to make a Simplex which in concept harkens back to the early 1900s period of motobike building...peddles, small bike frames, bicycle tires, coaster brakes. At the same time upgrading with disc brakes, multispeed, electric start & power...while retaining the inherent stance, size, nimbleness & attitude of the Simplex.

I was also notified that the Sunlite dual springer forks had shipped along with the flame tires, no word on the power plant. Headset parts already here. Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 06, 2015, 06:06:18 AM
So you'll be combining the pedal and engine drivetrains into chain drive then?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 06, 2015, 04:24:33 PM
Yes peddle and chain both sides, till motor comes in I won't know where to place the bottom bracket to best advantage. Tried to add photos of gas tank location a couple of times & keep getting error message about being full. Seemed to be sized right?? RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 06, 2015, 05:01:23 PM
I have same problem posting pics...
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 06, 2015, 06:14:50 PM
I have same problem posting pics...

Email the picture to me that you are having a problem posting so I can see what the issue is.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 06, 2015, 06:45:22 PM
"Upload folder is full" is the error message, I'm pretty sure I'm sized abot the same as the last pic postings but I'll double check.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 06, 2015, 07:00:38 PM
"Upload folder is full" is the error message, I'm pretty sure I'm sized abot the same as the last pic postings but I'll double check.

Try posting them again.  I emptied out the error logs, maybe that will help.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 06, 2015, 08:04:18 PM
Tried again Rick yet no joy...same error message only 2 photos attached each 1024x768 89.5kb each
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 07, 2015, 04:03:02 AM
Test
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 07, 2015, 04:05:22 AM
Picture posting should be good again. I am no computer guy, but is seems that we had hit the limit set by the forum software, so I increased the limit and it appears to be ok.  If anyone has any more problems, let me know!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 07, 2015, 06:19:14 AM
Thanks Rick.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 07, 2015, 06:36:07 AM
So Ndian22, after you "squeeze" that engine and drivetrain in, given thought to controls?  I always thought about incorporating a foot clutch and jockey shift set-up to a Servi.  I had built a ironhead Sportster/bobber with it, and although a bit clumsy around town, it had a very "retro vibe/look" to it...Just a thought? (wish I had pics of that build, all internal wiring/cables gave it a bare minimalist look)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 08, 2015, 01:56:23 PM
Glad you brought the subject up because I haven't. I agree there's certainly a wow factor that appeals & yes the arrangement is a bit awkward in stop and go traffic but with such a lightweight machine & low center of gravity I don't think it would be a great safety concern. Though advanced in years I can still balance my bicycles at stop signs, feet on the pedals while waiting for traffic to pass, proping up a Simplex with one foot down shouldn't be difficult. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 17, 2015, 11:33:26 AM
Got impatient with the west coast dock strikes and ordered a 125cc 5 speed for the Simplex. I can always use an extra motor when the 150cc comes in. I finally have a definitive measurement on the engine, kinda like our congress having to pass the bill so they know whats in it. I bought two motors to find out their physical size!!
17"Hx12.5"Wx11"L, which will fit with my altered fuel tank concept using two peanut tanks mounted side by side in the stock Simplex tank location. This engine is kick start only, which simplifies layout not having a battery, starter and rectifier to eat up available space & leads to a less cluttered frame.

Engine is rated at 11+hp @8,000rpm, torque 9ft. lbs, just a bit more than my goal of exceeding the hp of the biggest Mustang offered (10.5 hp) with a 4 speed back in the 60's.  Motor is a base model (no carb, exhaust, CDI, shift lever, kick start lever or coil...these I'll get on order this week along with a set of drive sprockets (420 chain) in place of the 428 chain mounted on the engine. Reason for switching to 420 chain & drive sprockets is to use a special wheel hub adaptor on the coaster brake rear wheel. I've successfully used the 420 chain on 20+hp machines in the past.

Also arriving are the Sunlite dual springer forks and a drive off center stand to support the bike at rest. Several other parts are supposed to arrive this week so it's slowly coming together 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 17, 2015, 11:46:11 AM
Would you do us a favor and post your parts sources , please ?

I like the looks of that springer .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 17, 2015, 12:27:36 PM
Glad to the fork is a Sunlite deluxe springer fork, 1" threaded and is disc brake ready or will accept a drum... 26" wheel up to 2.75" width tire. These are a reproduction with improvements of the classic Monarch springers. I purchased these off ebay for $135. + $17.02 ship...note that the last ones I purchase were about $60. more from a different vendor. I checked and these are still available @$135. this p.m.
Be sure you understand that both 1" & 1&1/8" are often listed some are disc compatible not all will accomodate 2.75"x26"...also the one I ordered does not include the bottom fork tube race or headset. In a previous post I included the info on what I'm using for the headset. As I also build motorized bicycles I'm always searching for good buys on known quality parts and use a lot of different sources which I'm happy to share with all. Just ask for a specific part or parts & I'll reply with what vendors have worked for me.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 17, 2015, 12:35:42 PM
PD      US-EXPR is the ebay vendor I ordered from, listed in cycling parts... about 2 week delivery & arrived in great shape.  Rick C.,
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 17, 2015, 03:02:07 PM
Excellent . Thanks , Rick C.

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 18, 2015, 08:48:35 PM
Got some rubber on the wheels, actually just wanted to see what the 2.4"x26" tires would look like on the springer fork & wide rims & I'm sure 2.75"x26" would easily fit these forks. Just messing around with ordering parts right now & getting a better vision of how it will look when completed...no big hurry here. RickC.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 19, 2015, 03:11:08 AM
Are you going to go with solid, or rubber/isolated engine mounts on the engine?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 19, 2015, 07:07:59 AM
I favor isolation mounts & am considering mount design now. The motor has 5 well placed mount locations (2 lower front and 2 lower rear & 1 rear up on the head)  I've been told these engines are well balanced & therefore by nature smooth, but a layer of rubber can't hurt.
Trying to work in a little time next week to get a rolling chassis ready for initial mock up. Splitting time between building a truck and 2 cars limits time I can spend on the bike yet I'll get there. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 23, 2015, 01:49:28 PM
Just bits and pieces. Using the Sunlite dual springer fork with disc brakes may not be something the forum is acquainted with & thought it might be informative if I went into a bit more detail. To begin with this is a strong fork for use on primarily bicycles but has proven itself on not only peddle bikes but also on hundreds of motorized bikes and even light motorcycles. The version I've chosen comes with disc brake caliper mounts on the right side legs, which is opposite of most bicycle mount position for lets say disc brake equipped mountain bikes. This poses no problem in selecting front caliper, rotor or rotor adaptor. I'm using an Avid brand front caliper and a 160mm Avid rotor...basic mountain bike stuff. The Sta-tru bike wheel has disc rotor mounting capability. I could have gone to 180mm or larger rotor but really don't like the look & 160mm stop light street bikes well.

When using this combination one must remember that the tire must be mounted on the wheel for rotation opposite of what it would normally be with the disc rotor on the left side of the fork . You guys with a lot of bicycle experience already know this stuff but some probably don't.

I,ve pictured the forks with some bars I bent up, 24" wide and an alloy BMX style ahead stem made for a 1&1/8" fork & the custom bars. Since the Simplex head (steerer tube) is a 1"  as is the dual springer fork tube, I required an alloy adaptor to mount the ahead stem to the threaded fork tube and then to the new handlebars.
Using this steering setup gives me the option of changing bar height or even flipping the bar upside down while raising or lowering the bar height and angle. Completely changing to a different handle bar style is also made simple. This combination I feel also gives the steering a more finished look.

Still waiting on parts and building on the truck and two Chevy sedans so progress is quite minimal on the Simplex.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 23, 2015, 06:52:39 PM
I had a set of bars similar to yours but, had to change them to something a bit straighter because they interfered with tighter turns and hit my knees/legs.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 03, 2015, 06:55:56 PM
I actually took the basic shape for the handlebars from the 1960 shop manuel posted on this forum. It shows in 2 dimensions a drawing of the bars, of course it's flat & I imposed a bit of imagination as to bar width (22") and to incorporate an additional 3-D element to the bar shape.
By using the dual springer forks I've quite a range of adjustment to bar height using the threaded section (prior to cutting to final length) and tube spacers. The stem adaptor also allows up to 1.5" of additional height and of course the bar angles are infinately adjustable at the stem to position the bar to hand positions perfectly. I envision the bars to easily clear both my knees and tank.
I plan on locating the saddle a bit more to the rear & low in the frame just a couple of inches above the tire, much like an early board track racer position. Haven't mocked it up yet, but that's what I've imagined. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 07, 2015, 11:25:02 AM
Weather finally turning around here & I took the Simplex frame out of my garage and into the shop. I've some concern about frame damage and will cut & sleeve those sections, tru the frame and cut off the crash bars & foot pads while cleaning up (removing) all existing mounting brackets for engine, drive train & controls. I'm going for an ultra clean and minimalistic frame which I'm hoping will result in a board style bike which will also include peddle drive capability .  I'm looking for a racer profile not unlike what a 1920-ish Servi-cycle would have looked like, if the company had existed in the heyday of board track racing. In other words it's pure fantasy on my part!  RickC.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 13, 2015, 03:26:34 PM
Trimmed the crash bars and footpads. Removed the bottom tank support, control tabs, rear triangle gusset bars & motor mount plate. I ordered a couple of 20 foot sticks of 1" DOM tubeing and it arrived this am. Photo shows (poorly) some lower frame issues consisting of various dents and bends. Replacement of damaged tubing is the best route to follow. So I'll be working on the frame a bit. 1.5" tubeing for the exhaust also delivered, but the exhaust flange, copper gasket, collets & studs are coming from the Orient. 150cc engine still tied up in port of L.A. mess so it's full ahead with the CG125 5 speed. 44 tooth sprocket and hub adaptor also came in but the 13 tooth engine sprocket has not. Bunch of stuff still on it's way. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 18, 2015, 01:52:49 PM
More parts, new Mikuni 25mm carb with left hand choke & intake manifold (rubber with O-rings). Also 420 chain & 13 tooth engine sprocket to  match up with the 44 tooth rear completes the drive train hook up to the sprocket hub adaptor. 1.5" x 15" muffler and shift lever scheduled in by UPS latter today.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 18, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
A lot of nice parts going into this build!  With all that frame damage, maybe you should stretch the neck and wheelbase a little for more engine clearance?  I wonder if the proportions would be ok with a 3" neck stretch and a 3" backbone stretch.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 18, 2015, 08:38:47 PM
Rick we've been considering 3" to 4" certainly for the extra room it will afford the engine, but also wheelbase & increased stability at cruising speeds. I'd hate to put the effort in and then hate the finished ride qualities. Thanks for your interest. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on March 18, 2015, 09:12:46 PM
Are you going to do anything to "customize" the look of the engine such as, polish the cases or accent color the head, jewel cut fins, etc...  Just curious? 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 19, 2015, 07:25:45 AM
Initially I'd planned a 150cc electric start for this bike, which was solid black which I thought to  contrast with polished head & cases along with chrome motor mounts, bits and pieces and natural alloy carb. L.A. dock strike prompted the order of the silver, kick start 125cc engine. The finish on the motor is really quite good as it is, yet the lack of contrast is a bit boring I'll admit and a partial polish & powdercoat of engine parts would be sweet. I'll kick this around till I have a rolling chassis to look upon. 
Rear sprocket hub adaptor allows left to right adjustment of rear sprocket & .75" of additional chain clearence to clear wheel & tire. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 20, 2015, 02:36:38 PM
Added Avid calipers to the dual springer front forks.  These mount on right fork leg just opposite of mountain bike so wheel is flopped & if you mounted the tire as normal (as I have) the tread is reversed & will have to be remounted. Necessary brake cable length also affected. I'll run a 160mm caliper which I've used for many years on mountain bikes and motorized bikes. Avid products are very high quality yet are modestly priced, simple to mount and maintain...pads and rotar change out in minutes. Dozens of back to back 30 to 50 mph checks and stops are common in the mountais so they have to be good. Course I don't ride that agressively anymore, but many of the lads do. Since I so often use the rear coaster in my builds I don't skimp on the front brake. Chains will separate on odd occassions & even odder things usually occur after that!

The picture shows the dual springer fork set up correctly with thin rubber bushing on top of bracket with the thicker one under the bracket & on top of the springs. This helps eliminate springer "bunny hop" or shudder on heavy front brakeing or when "wash board" roads occur.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 23, 2015, 12:10:55 PM
Bare frame ready for modifications at shop.  RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: butch27 on March 23, 2015, 06:13:36 PM
Man that thing is beat up.. Good luck, I'm sure you'll fix it.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 23, 2015, 08:17:04 PM
Butch poor thing looks even worse up close!  Photos don't do it justice, but one of the jobs we do in this shop is rebuild wrecked and worn out commercial trailers...big rigs. Sometimes it takes three totaled trailers to make one that will pass DOT certifications (large equipment means huge devastation in the wake of a crash) think this little frame will be quite easy in light of our normal activity. Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 02, 2015, 12:54:47 PM
Ever consider how many vendors are used to supply parts for a custom build...32 different vendors so far on this Simplex Cajun Gator, with some suppliers providing multiple parts, kinda surprised me when I collected all the receipts in one file!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: kartjockey on April 02, 2015, 02:10:16 PM
Rick C.  My custom  Stretched and Lowered green bike was built out of five countries and three continents!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 02, 2015, 09:40:10 PM
I've been down that road . I keep a file on every bike or other sizable project .
My XT350 was built with parts from all over the country and Asia and Japan .
The world 'seems' to be getting smaller . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 06, 2015, 12:16:28 PM
Kart Jockey, Just finished going completely through your "stretched and lowered" build...very nice job to date & I gleaned some much valued insight for stretching my "distressed frame" a bit. You used 9" bottom & 6" up top. I'd originally planned on scabbing 4" on bottom but after seeing your project & some additional visualization on my part I've settled on a lower 6" & 4" top tube stretch. In addition I'm favoring bending all new tubing from the head to the drops. I have been bending tube for half a century & have a 10 year old Huth hydraulic tube bender to utilize on the fab work. Thanks for that inspiration as well.

Pete you & the Kart Jockey been out-sourcing a bunch too. Thanks to all the guys that post up and inspire as well as inform the rest of us to get it done. I'm nursing a bad back but it's on the mend while my shop guys are working on the 1946 Chevy truck I just been supervising & paying the bills, but holding off on the Simplex build allowed me time to learn a bit more, again thanks! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 06, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
Bad backs ... I don't know what it is . Maybe the water ? ;)
I've got one , too . I have to adjust it multiple times a day , but I get by .

And , hopefully , there's always time to learn .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 06, 2015, 06:40:46 PM
Pete I'm guessing too many years of hard work coupled with the additional burden of low pay.
Chevy is getting a lot of attention & $$.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 06, 2015, 09:25:12 PM
What ? You got paid ?  ;)

Is that truck box big enough to hold a Simplex or two ?
That would be neat combo .

Pete . :)

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 07, 2015, 10:40:16 AM
No it's 3/4 full of stainless gas tank, four link air bag suspension,'bout enough room left over for a couple of "sea bags" and a thermos of coffee. I do have a 2" receiver hitch in place for a rack or trailer.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 07, 2015, 01:33:05 PM
I see . Heck that box isn't big enough to even carry a spare tire . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/laugh2.gif)

It'll look pretty decent when you get it done though .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on April 07, 2015, 10:04:48 PM
What ya got or going to power it with?  ???
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 08, 2015, 07:10:57 AM
That's my 350 chevy mockup motor installed now.  I use it to do fit up then road test (which has been completed) I've got a 350 Vortec, carbed, which will go in latter with sprint style stainless outside the rails headers & mild engine mods. I'm planning on keeping this one for awhile and putting on the street often, 400 auto & 3.88 rear. Engine should put out low 400 hp number, pretty mild & easy to drive, an old guys rat rod but using quite a bit of shiny stuff on it. Hope to get some decent photos outside the shop soon.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 08, 2015, 08:07:06 AM
Ha . That shiny stuff is for 'I got nothin' else to do' times . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: bjm on April 08, 2015, 09:50:52 AM
guess what iam  building   ???   1956
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 08, 2015, 09:59:52 AM
Hmm , looks like about a sixties VW .

My uncle had those for years .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 08, 2015, 10:30:59 AM
I've done a few of those.  I like the early split window kit you are putting in!  What are you using for power?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 08, 2015, 10:54:47 AM
Great project & ditto the split window...looks great. One of the high school girls here has a 1963 VW her dad restored for her & each time I see them on the road it brings memories of another girl & her VW, back in '63, who ended up marrying me. RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 08, 2015, 12:37:08 PM
Since I'm using a motor driven, bicycle chain drive, pedal power, coaster brake, rear wheel/ hub adaptor sprocket...whew, on a Simplex (kinda) frame thought I'd post some pictures and explanations.
The rear wheel is driven by two sprockets a twenty tooth 3/16" on the right side provides power from the bicycle pedals. There is a 44 tooth 1/2" sprocket on the left, mounted on a hub adaptor for motor power. Braking is coaster brake operated by back pedaling the pedal crank. 1901 thru 1920 most moto-bicycles used a similar arrangement...even the V-twins of Harley, Indian, Pope, Excelsior etc. all based on a bicycle frame and forks. Worked pretty well despite massive engine weight, little or no suspension, often absent front brakes ,pitiful tire compounds & horrific roadways. Think about the board track racers of the era who raced & often died at speeds over 100mph on those simple macines.

The photos show a cartridge type bearing & shaft along with the "bracket shell" which houses it, threaded left & right to accept the cartridge to which the crank pedals will be attached. The "shell" will be welded to the Simplex frame on a plate which will also accept the "drive off" kickstand, behind the engine/trans case.

The pedals only turn under human power and can help power the bike with engine running or not. The pedals/chain also act as the linkage to the rear coaster brake and if the right side chain breaks the rear is brakeless. Simple system that I trust when aided by a good disc/caliper arraingement up front. Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 08, 2015, 12:42:29 PM
What is the plan for pedal mounting? A Simplex is very low so the pedals will have to be mounted high.  Seems to me this will be difficult to pedal?  What are your thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 08, 2015, 07:12:07 PM
Rick your so right on all points. Pedals will be "capable" of powering the bike but mainly used for footrests and rear braking or emergency starting. What I've done in the past is index the pedals level & normally locked so they can't rotate except for 1/4 turn back for braking. The pedal levers & bottom bracket will be extra wide about 15" or so to clear the cases & pedal levers quite short (155mm) for ground clearance when pedaling. I'll probably not believe just how uncomfortable pedaling will be until I try it...brutal comes to mind. I'm sure your all wondering. Why go to the trouble?
It's a good question too. I've used this exact setup of wheel, tire, sprocket, brake, hub adaptor before on heavy bicycle frames with 12.5 hp Ktm 2 strokes that were wicked strong and fast. As a result I'm confident these components can take the power & weight on the street. The reasons for the pedal part of this build is I'm a big fan of the early Indian board track bikes & like running a double chain, part of a tradition for me. I like the small bicycle wheels and tires which are also part of the early look I'm after. I don't want another motorcycle or something that looks like one.

I'm also trying to give my small town police and Sheriffs dept. a break so they don't "have" to arrest my sorry old butt for not tagging & registering a motor assisted pedal bike...which this will kinda look like but we all know it isn't. Just me trying to help out the local law! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 09, 2015, 03:41:12 AM
Sounds like a well thought out plan!

Where you live, you don't need to register and insure motor assisted pedal bikes?  Here in New York, the land of NO, everything must be registered to be road legal.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 09, 2015, 06:03:16 AM
Good to know where your from Rick & yes we here in Indian Territory still have a few civil liberties. Mo-ped assisted bicycles are not required to register, tag or insure if the bike, motor and operator fall witin the defined legal guidelines which I do... yet the Simplex I'm building doesn't. Operator if over the minimum age, 16 if I recall correctly, not even required to have a license. Motors are limited by motor size, not horsepower, so a 50cc KMT with centrif. clutch making 12 hp @ 11,000rpm makes the grade if geared to not exceed 35mph in a flat runup of 1/2 mile, while a larger engine of 100cc making 1.5 hp that can't get out of it's own way is not legal. Transmissions of any variety are not allowed. Yet in rural areas police seem to follow the maxim "if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck & walks like a duck...it's a duck."
So if I ride respectfully & below posted limits, law enforcement just see an old guy on a bicycle putt-putting along with a big smile on his face. They are used to seeing me in my high powered hod rods doing the same thing. I like to show off at legal speeds and they appreciate that, even if the young ones don't understand it!

I don't ride bicycles motorized or not on state highways too great a difference in speed and weight 35mph vs. 70 mph, 135lb. bike vs. 5,000 lb. pickup,  no chance in a collision.

Rick if I'm stopped & cited I'll bring her, regretfully, up to motorcycle regs, it's the law & sell. I like the simple, clean, uncluttered look of the early moto-machines & that's what I build. Tags, turn signals etc. look nasty on the small frames even if state legislators demand them.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 09, 2015, 06:24:15 AM
Rick, check out these bikes.  I have seen several, and they are really nice!

http://www.phoenixbikeworksinc.com/Phoenix_Bike_Works_News.html
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 09, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Those ARE really nice builds as is the base chassis.  The Whizzer motor and rear wheel belt drive sheeve is classic as well.  Phoenix has definitely found a niche market and if priced right should sell a bunch of kits.
Rick did you notice the position of the pedals & the bottom bracket. I'd be happy to have mine positioned the same and the Phoenix looks very cramped for actual pedaling. It would provide way too much exercise for my taste, as will mine. Hope to not have to use them very much. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 09, 2015, 08:14:25 PM
Having some nice weather here in western Oklahoma, decided to get my desert truck out for a quick run in the dirt. Boss 302 4 bolt 1970 engine puts out 410hp on pump gas & carbed...pics of engine after complete rebuild about a year ago. TCI Ford C4 tranny with manual valve body...lot of fun, strictly off-road.  RC 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 23, 2015, 07:21:12 PM
If I haven't forgotten something all the parts for my Cajun Gator have shipped & should be in my hands sometime next week so I don't have that excuse to begin work on the frame stretch and fabrication. The 1946 Chevy PU has been taking up most of my spare time these days, but I'll work some in the evenings on the Simplex. I really want both completed by the end of May as the shop work really gets in full swing first of June & all this hobby stuff must give way to the "big rigs" & making a living up through Nov. when it slows a bit. Enjoy Portland it sounds a blast!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 25, 2015, 01:40:03 PM
Rich Phillips design leather "Alligator" saddle. It is gel filled & fitted to his shops steel pan. I'm pleased, as always with his work. Measures 13"x10" He also crafted a Navaho "squash blossom" pattern saddle (same dimensions & shape) for a previous build and I really like the comfort and looks of his handicraft. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: kartjockey on April 25, 2015, 04:50:43 PM
Good looking leather pattern.  I like it a lot.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 12, 2015, 02:18:23 PM
Busy May for me & wet 21.5" in less than 30 days is an all time record here in Indian Territory. Took time to work on the bike one day this week (along with two fabricators at the shop) & in about a half day built a frame jig & completed a BASIC stretched frame, 6" longer added to the lower frame tubes & 4" to the top. Head & tank tube radius, along with seat strap spring are all that was salvagable up front. Axle drops were also usable.
Seat strap is slightly bent, but I feel it's usable. Wheel base is 52.5" & ground clearance is almost 4".
Plenty of room for fuel tank, drive off kick stand & jackshaft. Exhaust pipe routing around the frame tubes appears tight. Once I've determined the final position of all the bits & pieces I'll weld in the rest of the strengthening frame tubes, rear fender brace, engine plate & motor mounts/fuel tank mounts etc. Bunch to do & in a busy shop not a lot of available time, so I brought her home & mounted a few components to work out spacing etc. Rick C
   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on June 13, 2015, 05:46:54 AM
Are the front forks you are using the same length as Simplex forks?  Did you lengthen the front downtubes?  Looking good!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 13, 2015, 10:56:59 AM
Thanks Rick, the Sunlite forks are 1.5" longer than the Simplex measured from center axle to lower bearing race & the down tubes are 2" longer. My ground clearance is a bit less than 4" on tire height of 26.5" front & rear. So it too is stretched & lowered a bit. I'm delighted with the extra space provided & though I've not yet located a good original fuel tank, if one comes available there's adequate room to mount one. Saddle will be about 4" lower in the rear to obtain the early 1916-ish "board track" style I favor. I'll add both vertical & horizontal tube bracing to the rear triangle after mocking up all component locations. I'll also run steel plate from the front of the engine to within 2" of the rear tire for mounting purposes...engine, jackshaft, pedal bracket & kickstand etc. Know you guys will enjoy Portland and wish I could be there, maybe next year.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on June 13, 2015, 11:38:40 AM
I have thought about stretching one of these bikes to about 125% of current size to fit a gravely engine in.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 14, 2015, 03:44:53 PM
Rick I really like the Gravely look & sound...they are huge. 125% adds about a foot to the Simplex frame. The Gravely has set back in the frame to clear the stock down tubes & so engine height is a problem, I don't think lowering the frame by a couple of inches will get you there alone even with a 12" stretch on bottom & 7" on top. I'd suggest laying out a full size frame sketch on the floor & work out tube bend angles to verify concept first. For example my stretch bend angle is 90 degrees on the down tubes. Less bend, say 80 degrees, results in more engine front clearance for the engine case. Of course head rake changes also.  The top tubes can be raised as well by less top tube bend. Raising the top tubes also helps lessen "tube crossing" problem at the drop plates. The stock drop plates are large, so tubes can separated by 2.5" at least if necessary or have custom drops machined. Bending the top tubes (as I did) is another way of addressing the problem...or using both techniques together would work.  It can be built. Happy planning!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: kartjockey on June 14, 2015, 06:00:44 PM
The Gravely powered Simplex that I posted on here went to auction awhile back.  Ernie said it boiled down to two bidders and the bike ended up fetching  $17k!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 15, 2015, 05:00:09 AM
Owner should have been very pleased with the bidding on the Gravely Simplex. Rick you might want to complete yours while the market is hot!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on June 15, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
The Gravely powered Simplex that I posted on here went to auction awhile back.  Ernie said it boiled down to two bidders and the bike ended up fetching  $17k!

I find that incredible!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 20, 2015, 03:21:51 PM
Made a bit of progress over the past few days one or two hours at a time. Car show today it was the 1934 Plymouths turn & lots of love but no trophy. Cool folks large turnout of both exhibitors & enthusiasts. Indian Outlaw Scout motobike really drew a crowd but wasn't entered just thought it looked at home next to the hot rod. I'll take the rat rod Chevy PU next week & the Navaho Indian to the last car show for me till September /October. I plan on showing & entering all three Indian motobikes & the Simplex Cajun Gator in the motorcycle class at the 2 fall shows.

I'm still mocking up the Cajun Gator but with a bit more purpose & solidity before I break her down for completion of frame welding, followed up by another trial assembly before slicking up the frame & painting (all black frame).

These things are quite homely while under build but usually turn out pretty good.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 21, 2015, 03:28:41 PM
Bent brackets to co-join the front of the two fuel tanks & another to mount the tanks to the existing holes in the top tubes. Which I'm guessing were used to mount the original tank? I'm holding off on making the rear bracket but it will secure the rear of the tanks about 1.5" lower than the included photos indicate, giving the tanks an angle more nearly duplicating the top tube's angle of declination.

I'm going to feature a lot of copper on this bike & the copper Gator fuel caps, the eagle feather on the dual springers and Indian copper concho are just a few touches I'll add to contrast the black frame and tanks.  Copper will clad the seat spring strap. Black, copper & silver make for great contrast. The engine itself will also feature the same contrasts (solid silver motor just hurts my eyes & is rather boring in my opinion). Rick C.
 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 30, 2015, 08:45:32 AM
Decided to go 26"x3" on the rear...now stands 27.75" I let the 26"x2.4" on the front, result looks agressive. Also built a bracket to mount air shock to the saddle. Wrapped the leather grips & crafted a pure copper motor side case cover for the motor drive side, just small details. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on June 30, 2015, 09:49:55 AM
Nice job on the side covers!  I think you need to build a copper gas tank to do it justice!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 11, 2015, 05:33:30 AM
Thanks Rick more copper is on the way, tank maybe? Copper headlight & opposite engine covers.  Saddle air shock functions well & coupled with the 3" rear tire should give a soft ride. Have fun in Portland! RickC.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 13, 2015, 03:53:19 PM
Taking the bike back down to the frame to finish weld & install pedal bracket co-axle. When thats complete I'll reassemble the parts necessary to test as a pedal bike only. I'll ride for a few days or until I'm satisfied with the feel under human power. If it won't work as a bicycle it sure as heck will be worse with several horsepower and a transmission. It's the order of construction I've picked up while building several moto-bicycles in the past & saves time & aggravation in the long run. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on October 21, 2015, 09:53:23 AM
Is it done?  Pictures please!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 20, 2015, 06:25:40 PM
Sorry 'bout the lack of activity on my end of things...excuses? I have plenty, but "good reasons" are few. I'll post some photos of current progress, really nothing to show from most of the summer as I got back to work on the little bike only a couple of weeks ago.
If you recall my design was and is to include "pedal power" to the cycle, thus transforming the bike to the era and look of an early board track racer, with modern upgrades to be sure. Since the Simplex missed the whole age of board track racing by some 30 years (from the styles inception) I'm taking a lot of lee way on my design. Custom not restoration.
Still seeing a lot of cool work & ideas on the forum.   
Photos of the frame and bottom bracket.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 21, 2015, 01:57:59 AM
For the copper work, was most of electro-plated, or hand formed/machined?  Either way, it's a nice look!  You going to let the copper "patina" naturally, or is it clear-coated somehow?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on December 21, 2015, 09:22:29 AM
Looking good!  I see you changed the gas tank. Is that a spun aluminum tank?  I still think you should fabricate a copper tank, you definitely have the skill.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 21, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
Hey Rick, lost my lengthy reply to your questions due to time out so I'll hurry and keep it short. I want some patina & may clear coat & dull. No electro plate or powder coat used. Various ga. copper plate machined & or formed. Tank is steel & is welded to the frame tubes as a stress member. 14 gauge steel then welded to both the tank and frame forming an area to protect and conceal the headlight battery, CDI & coil. The panels will be covered in copper plate forming a tear drop shape with the tank.
The fuel tank will also be mostly covered with copper along with the spring strap. Both will have strong areas of black to contrast with the copper. Engine jug black hi-temp to off set the silver & copper. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on December 21, 2015, 12:33:53 PM
Now I see where you are going, I think it is going to be awesome.  Keep up the good work and keep us posted.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on December 21, 2015, 03:37:54 PM
Rick C. ,

I like it , but I'd forget the pedals . Even so , it'll be an interesting piece when finished .

If you want / need to type a lengthy post , you could type it up on MS Notepad or some such . Then copy & paste it here .
It's what I do sometimes . I can't remember all the times I've lost a post , for what ever reason .

Oh , maybe you could get Santa's elves to lend a hand . I heard they will be off work for a while , fairly soon . LOL

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 22, 2015, 07:04:35 AM
Thanks for the props.  My vision for the build is to end up with an updated board track look circa 1910, using Simplex frame. Early motos used pedals and coaster brakes, bicycle frames tire and wheels. I want to stay with the elements that identify with that look. Board track saddle, low profile, clean and basic...I love the lines of the Simplex frame, but need pedals to operate the rear brakes. Would have been way easy to slap an engine and go, but wouldn't satisfy my perimeters. Rick C.,
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 22, 2015, 06:44:58 PM
Getting the parts and pieces rounded up to re-assemble the "Copper Gator" like to get the bike together before the weekend & see where I'm at on engine fit up.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 25, 2015, 06:32:19 AM
Frame painted and re-assembly started. It's all going to fit but so tight in spots due to the addition of pedals to my design...made the whole build a lot more difficult, but the co-axle drive setup is so much cleaner than using a jack shaft arrangement. Of course it increased the cost as well unless you can machine the parts yourself.

Merry Christmas, Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 25, 2015, 07:46:09 AM
That thing is going to be way fast!!!  Hope the frame and all those welds are strong enough.  Doing 70mph and getting the "death wobbles" on such a short wheel based bike could make for an "interesting" experience!  A steering damper might be in its future.  Very cool.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bob53 on December 25, 2015, 08:27:28 AM
I'll bet this beast will even climb hills! Merry Christmas
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 25, 2015, 11:04:36 AM
Hell, it'll climb trees!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 25, 2015, 05:00:12 PM
I appreciate the comments guys & merry Christmas to you all.

The bike does have speed potential which I will not ever approach on bicycle tires. Speed rated tires mounted on trials type wheels are a future possibility, but this design is centered on 1910'ish bicycle look including small tubes, coaster brake, springer forks and pedals. It's been updated in power and safety with disc brake up front & 95 percent of the original tube replaced with heavy wall DOM tubing that is many times stronger than the original. Flat plate is .25" thick and all welds completed by certified welders in a shop that specializes in rebuilding and stretching of Peterbilt trucks and  trailers been doing this and building hot rods (four this year) race cars and motorcycles for many decades. Every man in the shop recognizes & turns out quality work and welds using highest quality equipment and materials.

The short wheel base is a concern even though it was stretched a half foot or so, about 55" now if I recall, that coupled with the fork rake and the springers inate characteristics are all reason for much caution during break in and shake down runs. I do have a stabilizer in parts that was on a custom bobber for awhile, which I mistrusted until it proved unnecessary for that bike.

Thanks for your input & interest in a project that is as far away from a restoration as it gets. I would never have butchered a complete bike in decent condition for a build like this. Simplex's are too few in number to destroy a good one.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bruce on December 26, 2015, 08:44:58 AM
I'm counting 6 sprockets...pedal power 2.   Engine to jack shaft 2 then 2 drives.  Can't you just come out of the 5 sp direct to rear? Why go to the shaft?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 26, 2015, 07:57:08 PM
Hi Bruce, Got timed out again during a thorough explanation to your good question. This is brief & photos will be posted to illustrate after sizing. Engine sprocket is located 2" or so outside the frame rail when engine is balanced in the frame. Chain angle formed by such an extreme single chain setup would jump the chain off the sprocket, to say nothing about sawing the frame tubes like a chain saw.  Moving the engine any further to starboard would result in an extremely unstable ride and look silly as well. Engine & outside sprocket form the primary drive chain and the offset inside sprocket connected to the rear axle sprocket comprise the secondary drive chain. Each drive chain can remain dead straight with it's companion sprocket. This is the primary benefit though there are other advantages as well such as reduction coupling for fine tuning final drive ratios etc. Photos should clarify.  Rick C.
 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 26, 2015, 08:18:18 PM
Bruce refer to my reply # 106 on this page photo # 1 indicates how far outside the frame tubes that outside sprocket is in the photo before the engine is mounted in it's correct location which puts the engine sprocket out an additional .75".
Photo attached shows engine and final chain lines which are straight arrow between sprockets with no chain contact with tire or frame. Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 27, 2015, 08:06:25 AM
What's your plan/design for its exhaust system?  Low mount, scrambler/high mount, straight header?  Haven't got that far?  LOL.  Lookin good....
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 27, 2015, 12:08:39 PM
Good to here from you, hope all is well with you. I'm making good progress at an Old Guy's pace and should have the Gator growling in a few days. Got a Peterbilt in the shop for a water pump replacement etc. & another 1946 Chevy rat rod PU truck under construction so bicycles are about the only thing you can work on at the same time and get anything accomplished as we are a the moment in a significant winter storm with 50mph winds. Outside work is basically stopped, though and power outages are quite probable, which shuts us down completely.
Thanks for the props. Exhaust is coming up and am weighing scrambler, high short tuck or short header dumping straight down between the front frame tubes and duplicating the frames angle (swept back). I've tried not to mount much that competes with or conceals the lines, angles or radius of the original frame. Scrambler pipes would compete with the frame & so I'm leaning to the header right now. Which ever design I follow the plan is for a solid copper exhaust 1" pipe size to a muffler of my design consisting of a copper reduction cap fitted over a 7" length of 2" ID Copper pipe ending with another copper reduction cap. the 1" header tube will run through the larger muffler body and have a series of 1/4" holes drilled and the cavity loosely filled with fiberglass. Copper has a very nice resonance. The shop has a full a muffler service as well & a lot of experience in not only large commercial vehicles but also motorcycle and hot rod work as well, so I think a lot about exhaust design. I'll post a photo of some of the parts I've gather for the copper muffler latter. 
Going to have quite a lot of copper on the bike before it's completed.  Rick C. 
 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 27, 2015, 12:35:53 PM
Found a photo not exactly as described but shows a few bits assembled & kinda looks like it could become a muffler. Rick C
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bruce on December 27, 2015, 02:36:12 PM
I see now, was wondering,that's all.    Keep building
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on December 27, 2015, 03:00:22 PM
I see now, was wondering,that's all.    Keep building

Bruce, are you working on your truck project, or did you give up on it?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 28, 2015, 04:53:03 AM
I follow your thinking on running it down and back "low".  When I finally decided on my "fishtail" exhaust, (I tried a couple designs) I too, found I needed to add some 1/4" holes along with a removable/internal wrapped baffle tube, in order to bring the exhaust tone ""down" and quiet it "just a bit" without inducing excessive back-pressure/restriction.  Luckily, a 4 stroke is way less "finicky" than doing a 2 stroke performance set-up, which allows a lot more imagination. Really cool, and the black/copper combo is a great choice. (older pic, but it shows the exhaust set-up) P.S. like you, I live in a place where the "local law enforcement" uses some judgement as to what a motorcycle and/or a moped is...I registered mine as a moped since I cruise it "in-town" below 45mph. and have no issues with them other than curiosity.  LOL
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bruce on December 28, 2015, 06:00:46 AM
I see now, was wondering,that's all.    Keep building

Bruce, are you working on your truck project, or did you give up on it?
I am, but slowly. I have a few Whizzer projects and even though I mounted a whizzer engine on the truck I'm not sure I'll leave it.  Plan is to get more done soon hopefully.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bruce on December 28, 2015, 06:02:48 AM
Carryall....where did that fishtail come from?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 28, 2015, 12:53:20 PM
It was an old crusty "left-over" I had found, so I "modified" to fit.  I think they were used on some old mini-bikes from the 70's.  I thought it looked "appropriate".  LOL   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 28, 2015, 04:47:08 PM
May have already told you how much I admire your Simplex and the fish tail is an awesome addition that's really a great signature feature for your fine moto! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 30, 2015, 03:12:21 AM
Thanks, I appreciate the compliment.  I'm just waiting for some 3/16" stainless steel braided fuel line to finish up the new carb installation, since I changed its routing.  I haven't found a "winter project" to work on yet, except some "wrenching" on my old ZR7...I'm jealous. (last air cooled, carbed 750's) LOL
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 31, 2015, 05:16:49 PM
I've always admired the Kawasaki's if that era both for style & performance and your's is a beauty. I only remember seeing the ZR7's in blue or silver. Were other colors offered?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on December 31, 2015, 10:15:31 PM
yellow, "blurple", and red.  Most ZR7's sold in the U.S. were the "ZR7S models" which had the front fairing/windshield.  There's not much on my "blue bike" that I haven't changed, tweaked, painted, or modified in some way, shape, or form...  The Kaw. 750 engine design is so old, yet reliable, the block still has the screw holes, from when they used the points/condenser set-up. LOL. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 04, 2016, 06:37:58 PM
Remember the 327 Hi-Perf vette dual point distributor? Scratch my head till I'm bald & still couldn't figure it out, memory is fading lol.

Dyed the leather grips to match the saddle, natural tanned hide really clashed. Angled carb came in and only angles carb to the inside which actually barely fits (like everything else) but fit it does and actually looks at home there, just not what I'd imagined...which would have placed the carb & air cleaner toward the folded kick start lever, outside of the frame. Saddle height 26" rear tire stands 28.5"....axle to rear axle in most forward position 53.5" with 55" about max on use able wheelbase.

Ordered the brass fittings to hookup the fuel supply & misc. bits and pieces. Also cut the parts for a short steel stinger header for a test start on the motor. Also need to complete my wiring harness as well.

I've also ordered a idler sprocket  for secondary chain tension. I'll weld a slot bracket to the frame similar to the bracket I fabricated for the coaster brake lever. I'll decide whether to mount that on top of the frame or go to the bottom; as I did on the coaster bracket...after I receive the sprocket as I'm not sure of it's diameter.

Lots of little stuff, which means a lot, to finish up. Starting the engine is the next big hurdle to be cleared. Still just having fun! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 05, 2016, 03:08:40 AM
A factory curved/angled section of appropriately sized radiator hose can also be cut and used for air filter locating. Depending on what style A/F you like, some even come with a oil breather adapter/inlet built in, if you preferred to "run the vapors" back thru the carb. vs a catch bottle/vented filter. But I'm sure you know all that...As for the dual points, I remember one set of points was set at 26 degree dwell, and the other was 33 degrees (on an Accell dual points set-up anyways?  I think? scratch, scratch... LOL) 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 05, 2016, 06:18:33 PM
It's great when someone understands one of my goofy  references & responds with a  corresponding trivia answer. Well done Sir!

Equally important is being spot on with the radiator hose, oil breather/ air filter. I had not considered either. Here's what immediately came to mind. I flashed back (in a good way) to 1959 and my Cushman Eagle 8HP scooter. It was my first effort at hot rod mods. Which in itself is a long story...pertinent part is that the original carb was connected to a short radiator hose (factory) & then to a rather large frame mounted oil bath air cleaner. I'm trying to keep this brief, so one of the many mods to the L-head was to replace the intake, carb and air cleaner. I used a round slide Dellorto carb and a chrome Chevy valve cover breather as the "low restriction" air cleaner connected with a couple of (straight) inches of the radiator hose & 2 hose clamps (old style wire ones). Yogi Berra would be so proud of this( dejevu?) all over again moment. Thanks for jarring that random synapse which briefly opened the door for a glace back into my youth & helping me move closer to a working filtration system. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 06, 2016, 03:10:34 AM
Speaking of "random moments of clarity", Ya ever forget to turn your ignition switch "off" before shoving your feeler gauge into the points gap on one of them high energy ignition systems, while leaning on the fender???  SURE...you'd think 40,000 volts arcing from your zipper would be fun, and would really impress the girls right?  Nope. Neither one... LOL
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 06, 2016, 07:42:12 PM
No way!! Gotta admit I hadn't even considered the switch on possibility, therefore blind luck only that I avoided a jarring jolt to my jewels while tuning. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 07, 2016, 02:49:49 AM
That "little Frankenstein incident" was the inspiration behind my father and I "rigging up" a bird feeder with a car battery, a coil and 2 sections of coat hanger 1/4" apart, with a button, on a bird feeder in order to "ZAP" thieving squirrels.  Just one of those old, cherished  memories I have with my dad from long ago, that still make me smile (and miss him very much...  Sorry so "off subject")  Look forward to seeing what you come up with for your air filter design, and maybe a "audio/video link" to the sound of the engine when it's "up and running" with your exhaust?   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 07, 2016, 04:37:48 AM
X1 on the video .

And , I used a BB pistol , set on low , when 'training' feeder squirrels . LOL

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 07, 2016, 08:20:58 AM
I like off some off topic & given that we allenjoy juvenile hobbies, still we are adults and mainly stay targeted on the Servi-Cycle forum theme. I'm also aware of the very subjective role a moderator plays & am certain they will "guide" us back when it's called for. No complaint on my part.
I know it's not politically correct but I wish I'd thought of the squirrel shocker back in my youth. Remember the model T coil, the one in a wooden box; that would do it! Just like PD we just shot the little thieves with a BB gun. Now I just enjoy watching 'em eat with the birds. We have deer, wild turkey & a variety of wild critters that come into town and feed and as far as I know most people just let them alone.

I've got four headlight housings to finish. One in copper housing. The other three are "Classic style bullet" enclosures made in Taiwan, housing looks good but the guts are junk & produce a feeble trickle of light, if you can get them to function at all. I've finished one housing but need to fab a bracket for it. Took a Cree 2500 lumen led bicycle light that I've been using for about 6 months & retro fitted into the housing...used the lens & reflector, but trashed the rest. I'll use a 6,000 lumen in the next one  . though the 2,500 puts out enough light in town at legal limits. The Simplex gator will get the 6,000 unit. I'm good with charging the little Ion pack (2 x 2 x 2.5) occasionally. Seldom ride more than a few miles at night & the pack will provide full beam power for about 2.5 hours on a charge.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 07, 2016, 08:29:40 AM
Bolt is temporary and funky but works great as a spring loaded momentary contact on/off & beam selector for high power, low power & flasher settings...have to do till I fab a better one. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on January 07, 2016, 08:45:50 AM
I like off some off topic & given that we allenjoy juvenile hobbies, still we are adults and mainly stay targeted on the Servi-Cycle forum theme. I'm also aware of the very subjective role a moderator plays & am certain they will "guide" us back when it's called for. No complaint on my part.

In the 4 years I have been running this forum, only once did I intervene because I didn't like where the tone of the conversation was going.

 This is such a small group of people, I don't mind if we get off topic a little, keeps things friendly and relevant to the idea behind this hobby, which is FUN!

Carry on.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on January 07, 2016, 08:51:37 AM
One question? Didn't that engine come with a charging system?  If so there are many routes you can go. I found a led bulb that works from 6v to 36v and from off to bright with no in between. Its under headlight in category farms tanks seats etc.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 08, 2016, 08:34:44 PM
Thanks Rick kinda thought that might be your view point & it is a good nature group of enthusiasts here.

Oil-lamp the wiring harness is setup for charging, but I didn't purchase the necessary pieces to complete the system. My reasoning is typical of my eccentric personality. Seldom ride after dark & when I do it's typically just for a couple of miles or less. I really like simple and clean lines and since the the size bike I had in mind & the original design plan utilized most of the non-motor space with a pedal bracket/co-axle drive; there is now little room for even a small motorcycle battery, voltage regulator etc. that would look good to me. An Ion battery, led headlight has been the only lighting system in mind from the start & that will be concealed from sight along with the CDI and coil. My tail light design for all my bikes is a very bright led red flasher clipped to my back pocket, runs on AAA batteries and the cops love it...call it the old guys butt light! Small town live and let live philosophy.

Bracket for headlamp is of 1/4" steel, heavy duty.   Rick C.

   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 09, 2016, 06:16:00 AM
Rick C., I'll assume you read my battery/tail light/brake light thread.  (I had the same rational)   Amazing how long the little Ion battery packs last using LEDs.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 10, 2016, 02:18:24 PM
I did carryall & my experience with the 2500 lumen version battery pack used mostly on the brightest setting gives great light at low drain. If I were to require several hours of light at a time I'd not only go to a charging system I'd also opt for a Gullwing or BMW. This has worked for me & seems to satisfy the local police here.
We've been hammered lately with winter storms which is not our normal weather pattern. Those living North of the Mason Dixie have good reason to laugh at this, but a little is a lot when your local services aren't prepared to handle large scale road and power problems due to winter weather. I've been hampered in the shop, especially welding. Power is on enough for lighting but little else. Photos show the ugly results of weld beads that should not have been attempted which will require a lot of grinding...then re-weld. 

I'm adding a 10 tooth idler sprocket for chain tension on the final drive chain & an idler roller to the short primary chain like some of the old Harley's etc. ran. With 3 chains it would be difficult to maintain all of them in  perfect tension without the idlers. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 11, 2016, 02:49:06 AM
You opted for "manual adjustment" over an automatic or "spring tension" I see.  Pro's and cons to each.  I debated on doing something similar (tensioner) but ended up "anchoring" my jackshaft, and slotting out the engine mounting plate some more, in order to move/adjust it forward as needed, and making a pair of rear axel tensioners to pull/adjust the rear wheel back.  BUT, you've got the more critical, and less forgiving, drive chain(s) to deal with, and a lot less room to do it.  Not to mention the significant increase in H.P and torque transfer using chain drive over belt drive.  Pretty cool.  Matter of fact, I just watched Mecum motorcycle auction this weekend on T.V., and saw a few of the old "Board tracker" bikes of the 20's/30's (of similar design going for INSANE money)...Hard to believe that those guys usually didn't even have BRAKES! (ALOT of racers AND spectators died back then!)  Crazy speeds on a 60degree wooden track!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 12, 2016, 06:27:39 PM
Those auctions are so much fun I'd like to attend one someday. Youtube has quite a few board track bikes Popes,  Excelsior (Schwinn), Harley, Indian etc. and original footage of early day races at various tracks: along with the bikes and men who raced them. It's an interesting study of a time when men could be men & engage freely in very dangerous pursuits that would never be allowed in this day of political correctness under a nanny state that purports to be able to provide protection to each and all when it can't even balance it's own budget!

Not the right forum for that outburst, even so.... Your right about loss of life and I can also see why the government banned it's practice.

Your also right about belts and chains. On motorized bikes with pedal power two chains alone can be frustrating, exponential with three without tension. Manual install looks cleaner , to me & in reality adjustment takes place maybe once or twice a month during daily riding. Weld on tension tab prevents the disaster of having a bolt on device pivot into the spokes which tears up the spokes and can toss the rider over the bars. I use the bolt on for aluminum frame bikes (don't really like the way they look and the spring type is really ugly).

I will also use a rear axle adjuster as you pointed out, to precisely align as well as tension the rear rolling assembly & it will be the only adjustment available for setting the tension on the pedal side chain & getting the drive side secondary chain close enough to allow the frame tension sprocket to do it's work. By the way 3 chains are very common on motor bicycles equipped with 4 cycle engines and centrifugal clutch, which might be jack shafted or use a co-axle on the bottom bracket as I've done (easier to do a co-axle drive on a bicycle cause the pedal bracket is already in place and aligned). I'm really not dreaming all this stuff up as I go, just never seen it on a Servi-Cycle (kinda).  Still having fun! Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 13, 2016, 03:24:24 AM
As much art, as they are engineering...
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on January 13, 2016, 05:32:40 AM
Love those old motors!  Rick, your bike is going to be really nice. I have been following your build on the motorbicyle forum.  Some of those guys over there do very nice work.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 13, 2016, 07:54:14 PM
Wow, Cyclones are among the rarest & that yellow one should be framed and hung on a wall...till I get around to riding it!

Thanks Rick the MB forum covers the spectrum & some builds are very special, but then I'd put the quality here on that level also and in my opinion it's more difficult to perfectly restore an old motor vehicle than than to fabricate a custom. Done both on cars, trucks and motorcycles & that's my take. Can't say that I prefer one over the other; though for the past few years I've concentrated on the hot rods, off roads and one off motorized pedal bikes. Whatever inspires me. Probably get some more accomplished on the "Gator" late this week  Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 14, 2016, 01:00:27 PM
Restoration was much harder "back in the olden days" though, before the internet.  Now with the click of a few buttons on "the web" (and a PayPal account) anyone can find just about any parts and info you need.  BTW Rick (ndian22)  Your guys in the muffler shop, do they typically use a "course" grade stainless steelwool for muffler packing? (Lustersheen)  I'm re-doing my removable baffle, and looking at replacing the standard "glass packing" and going with stainless steelwool for better sound and durability.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 17, 2016, 06:00:12 AM
Net does make life much easier. I'm located 100 miles from a metro area added on to actual search time when I get there. Ebay & Craig's list huge help on the "odd" & common items alike.
SS wool is great for custom building & tuning. I suggest very loose packing first, test & add or subtract wool to suit. The tighter you pack the louder it gets. I like a mellow burble (kinda sounds like a color selection at Sherman Williams) & on the quiet side of obnoxious. Have fun with it.
Adding hammered copper to the plates behind the tank. Gives a bit of shine and a lot of contrast. 
 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 17, 2016, 07:19:20 AM
Don't know if it would be useful for any of your applications, (or not) but, copper can be soldered very nicely and easily to dissimilar metals, (and glass) using a copper foil tape applied around the edges.  I used to make/sell stained glass windows (and bronze art castings) with my partner, and we incorporated all sorts of "things" using it.  Just a thought that may/may not apply...
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 17, 2016, 08:01:02 PM
I greatly admire stained glass but never tried my hand at it. The foil you used, was it adhesive backed like circuit board copper? I've soldered, silver soldered,leaded and brazed over the years...whatever the metal & engineering specs demanded as well as using gas, plasma, TIG, MIG and ARC welding. Been kinda like a job over the years & paid a lot of bills.

Stainless elbow, 90 degree, was too large to fit between the exhaust studs, ordered another that hopefully will fit. Internet orders can also be a process of trial and error. Thought I was about done with ordering parts for the Gator but I've been wrong before. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 18, 2016, 03:24:13 AM
Yep, exactly.  It comes in various widths and you can also make/incorporate strips without adhesive using shears and heavier gauge copperfor bracing, support.  Making a stained glass panel is like making a jigsaw puzzle essentially. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 18, 2016, 05:29:29 PM
I really like jig saw puzzles as well especially when a special piece just falls into place.

Acrylic adhesive has special properties as well, bonds well, water proof, chemical resistance is high as is it's ability to withstand moderately high temps. Foil combined with acrylic is quite useful it seems. RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 19, 2016, 12:55:43 PM
I conducted a test on some acrylic adhesive, an automotive type, bonded two plates of aluminum and allowed a few hours to cure partially, then baked at 550 degrees for about an hour. No smoking or melting occurred & the bond was intact. Only surface prep was to wipe the plates with alcohol. Next test is to copper wrap a header tube, bonded with acrylic & see what transpires.

Copper exhaust parts, carb breather housing and another motor housing cover fabricated from flat plate & hammered to proper contour. Probably leave at least part of the polished flat for some type of vinyl design, medallion or emblem.

Some of my vendors are dropping the ball on my "small orders" it's become a waiting game & of course when I've ordered the wrong part that also delays a bit as well! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 20, 2016, 03:14:25 AM
 That's going to be a pretty "sweet" looking exhaust tip.  Question: Are you planning to "start and Run it" (the engine) in its stock OEM configuration first, for "break-in", and to make sure everything is "good to go?  Then "re-do" the intake, exhaust, etc., so you can judge and/or adapt to any tuning changes that may occur from the modifications? (i.e. re-jet, A/F mixture)  Only reason I ask is, I've made the mistake of doing more than 1 "modification/change" at a time and then having to "back-track" in order to solve which "one" it was that was causing an issue.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 20, 2016, 08:42:24 AM
Excellent point & yes I'll approach the initial start up and run in with care. I too have added my "good designs" to a new build and found out after much late night oil that I'd not only gotten the horse behind the carriage, he was harnessed up in reverse as well.
I normally begin by spraying a bit of high grade lubricant into the cylinder when I gap the plug. At this point I haven't even rotated the crank...moving dry rings on a dry cylinder is bad.Shipping oil has been drained and both trap filters cleaned. Single viscosity cycle oil used for initial break in of about an hour or so. If it runs and sounds good I'll drain the oil and again service the oil traps. Read the plug & adjust as I go. Of course if it runs crappy I'll have already looked at the plug etc. One never quite knows what to expect on start up so I tend to suspect everything, but adjust one suspected problem at a time. The copper exhaust system will be added after initial run in. Probably just use a stub of some 6 to 8 inches at first.

I also should probably order in an extra CDI (known to frequently fail on initial startup), coil & a selection of Mikuni parts as well though I think I have a selection for the carb here some place. I also bought a Honda shop manual CD that looks to be an excellent replication of the original...not a second party publisher!

Hammered some fuel tank side plates as well this a.m. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 21, 2016, 08:30:53 AM
Got 'em looking like "baby moons". Side plates for the clutch side and steer plate cover also shown. All the copper parts seem to fit up nicely including the flat panels behind the fuel tank. Think I'll make a copper eyebrow for the headlight and cover the air shock/air spring in copper as well. Still considering using copper to accent the seat strap spring & steer head.  Parts I'm waiting on estimated to arrive sometime next week. Then hope to get the Gator to growl! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 23, 2016, 07:35:14 PM
Added primary chain tension roller and welded some 1.25" steel pads on the legs of the drive off stand for more stability of the bike at rest. Next comes the exhaust header so I can finally attempt startup. RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 24, 2016, 02:10:09 PM
Trying to re-size photos
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 24, 2016, 02:20:04 PM
Re-size
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 24, 2016, 03:32:20 PM
640 x 480 is a good size for forums . We can see the whole image without having to scroll .

Thanks from those of us with little 15" lap tops ... and the poor saps , I mean chaps , that have to try viewing on a so called smart phone .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on January 24, 2016, 04:11:26 PM
640 x 480 is a good size for forums . We can see the whole image without having to scroll .

Thanks from those of us with little 15" lap tops ... and the poor saps , I mean chaps , that have to try viewing on a so called smart phone .

Pete . :)

When we first started this forum, I would try to get the members to resize the photos so there was no scrolling, but I was unsuccessful in this endeavor.  I couldn't believe there were people who knew less than I about computers, and even I could resize a photo! LOL.

I have resized many of the photos on here, but I just don't have the time anymore.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 24, 2016, 04:19:50 PM
Have you considered some sort of chain guard, maybe something that "flows" from the engine back to the rear sprocket?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 24, 2016, 07:15:37 PM
Rick & Pete.  It just took me a year to snap to the sizing problem and just a few minutes to figure it out, my bad with apologies to those trying to view my over sized shots.  I now need to improve my camera skills, nothing that good lighting, camera and a tripod wouldn't improve, but decent composition is probably beyond hope for the Old guy.

Chain guard.. yes quite probable, though I'm undecided on design. The co-axle shaft is a logical mounting position for a circular disc shaped guard of approximately 3 inch diameter held in place by a 3/4" lock collar, since the axle turns only when pedal power is applied. The pedals themselves keep the legs and feet quite a distance from the chain & sprockets but safety is extremely important.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 25, 2016, 03:02:56 AM
The "safety" factor aside, I was just think'n you could make a cool looking one that would "tie in" both colors/materials.  Even a minimalist "cage type" using brass & black 1/8" welding rod, or???  As for posting pics, I recently bought this fancy new Toshiba laptop and haven't got the "hang" of this new "app crap" yet, after using the antiquated Win7 I had previously, (let alone the smartphone I take the pics with). Technology moves fast, me not so much...So, Feel free to fix any/all photos I attempt to post if they're to big in resolution/size PD.  (PS. I did repack my fishtail muffler with that S.S.wool this weekend, and it really knocked down the tone, and volume very nicely if your interested)    
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 25, 2016, 06:47:01 PM
Glad the SS re-pack turned out well for your fish tail. As to tech savvy I'm just struggling to barely get by. I only recently bought my first smart phone, android and my laptop, a Toshiba also, is 5 years antiquated!! It's been a good one & when I replace I'll probably purchase Toshiba again.

Chain guard on this one is probably just about looks unless a dog misses the leg and hits the chain saw or I start riding in long skirts. Should attempt a start up this week. I'll finish the exhaust stub then give it a try.

I'll also use Stainless packing in my copper exhaust...still haven't determined how to route the whole affair high, low, left side or right, short or long pipe or just a short stinger in front of the engine center, left or right.  Rick C..
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 26, 2016, 05:23:23 PM
Got the Copper Gator to growl, bit tight at first and had to be continually coaxed to keep running till she warmed up and I got the Mikuni to idle @ 1400 rpm. I'd ghetto/barrio/shade tree rigged (politically correct?) a 6" stinger exhaust and temporary air cleaner for the start & it was quite loud in the shop. Main point; it's a runner without load on. I won't take it out for a test ride until I put a couple of hours on her in the shop, read plug, adjust if necessary then drain oil & clean the strainer. Lot of things to tighten, adjust and lube prior to the test ride. Of course the main item missing is an exhaust system and properly dressing her out with the appropriate appointments.

Made some progress & still having fun! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 27, 2016, 03:33:22 AM
VERY COOL.  Always fun to start a new motor, and get that burning question answered!  I'd guess once you get some back pressure from a proper exhaust system, and the engine "loosens up" a bit, you'll be able to tune and adjust that idle down and smooth things out properly.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 29, 2016, 07:12:40 AM
Still tinkering with the exhaust. High style pipe really looks cool at about 24" in total length riding exhaust port high and almost level back to the front of the rear tire. Won't know if it will flow till I test it. Though not as critical to perf as a 2-stroke pipe there are parameters that when violated will significantly degrade performance on a 4-stroke as well.
Weather here is outstanding and I'd sure like to ride the Gator this week. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 30, 2016, 06:27:50 PM
Changed exhaust stub to flywheel side which eliminated a double constriction and gives a bit more room to remove the header pipe. Rode a few blocks and shifts fine, mostly rode in bottom three holes at a very slow pace, 25 mph, at most. Not a real test just confirmed that it would run with a bit of load and all 5 gears are functional. Good day.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 31, 2016, 04:37:51 AM
It's gotta be weird/awkward shifting without a foot peg to rest your foot on.  Considered a jockey shift perhaps?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 31, 2016, 06:01:09 AM
Actually for a lifelong  bicyclist & horseman who automatically rides with his legs and not his rump it's not. With a hard tail design bike the legs act as your shock absorber. As a lifelong motorcyclists I've always shifted with my foot & with 5 gears I'd have my left hand off the bar too much & then there's the clutch thing I'd have to deal with a "suicide" last two wheel foot clutch I've driven was a Cushman Eagle. I really like the idea of two feet on the ground at full stop, though I can still balance my mountain bikes for several seconds at a stop sign with both feet on the pedals I'd rather not try it everyday on the Gator. Another habit developed out of self preservation on a bicycle is "resting" (while coasting or in all cornering on "level pedals" supporting my weight on the pedals as stated earlier and so as not to "hook" a pedal (make contact with the ground with the pedal) it's easy to catch a pedal on a turn resulting in a bad fall & there aren't any good falls on a bike and certainly not at 69 years young.
My foot position on pedals brings the left foot to shift point without taking the foot off pedal . The pedals are my pegs/ stirrups/pad and out of habitual riding with them I find shifting the gator normal and hadn't even thought that it might seem a bit awkward or unsafe so I'll keep this arrangement in place.
Can't wait to really put some time in the saddle next week if the weather doesn't get too bad. Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 01, 2016, 04:12:21 AM
Few more angles
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 02, 2016, 08:15:26 AM
Hi Rick,

I know you post over on the motorcycling forum, and this is probably what you wanted to post here:  


Hi & thanks for following, I've read many of your posts and your Pope is righteous! Very cleaver details & just looks right. Went over to Custom M.B. sight & that's 75% of a co-axle drive & the price is right. 3/4" shaft & bearing races for 2" American press fit bracket shell good stuff. If you don't have your own machine shop you will pay at least double what CMB is charging.

I'd also consider calling Pat at Sportsman Flyer, as he has the sprockets as well as the above in a reasonably priced package, set up for his builds...probably need some minor custom machine work on the sprocket carriers for your application... to get correct chain spacing for your setup.

If however you choose to build your own. Here's what I needed in addition to what CMB is offering. 2" steel American bracket shell, cut it off an old frame or search the vendors. Get the axle parts first & make sure the measurements are correct for the exact shell I.D. & length. You can also have a competent machine shop turn a steel shell to s I turned my own parts. I then squared up another 2" inside diameter tube & milled a saddle using a side cutter. This cradles the bracket shell for welding. you end up with a T shape which I welded to a quarter inch steel base plate which was in turn welded to the two frame rails. You are probably building on a single tube frame, if that's the case the shell is either already welded in or you would add it in a somewhat typical bottom bracket location. Build a motor mount cradle & attach to frame weld tabs &/or clamps. I used the Harley clamps and they are wicked strong but pricey. I also used 2 weld tabs for one of my rear engine mounts. These were welded onto my bottom bracket tube.

Main thing on the bottom bracket is to get the axle level & the axle ends parallel with the bikes center-line or the sprockets will wobble.

My engine is set up to be adjustable to left or right, but my goal was to do it once, but make it easy to pull the motor for service. The motor was positioned for balance & then locked into the mounts. I chose to eliminate front to rear adjustments as I chose to not have an adjustable bottom bracket. Both the pedal side chain as well as the secondary chain to the back axle are adjustable only by changing chain length, axle position and the secondary chain by idler sprocket tension. Primary chain is adjusted by length of chain & roller idler tension.

The two sprockets are jack shaft 3/4" identical size. With rear tire mounted with final drive sprocket I established a straight chain line with the inside co-axle sprocket & located a shaft collar to maintain that spacing which was both straight and prevented the chain from ever drifting into the rear tire. I had to actually mill the collar to about 2/3 rd. of it's original thickness to keep the chain at least 1/4" off the tire.
With the engine output sprocket parallel to the bikes true center line a measurement is made to establish the distance between the two free wheeling co-axle motor drive sprockets. Distance between motor drive sprocket & the previously spaced inside co-axle sprocket is made & that distance is the total width of the two jack shaft sprockets when they are welded together. If that distance were 4.5" (measured to center of each chain line) & the combined width of the two jack shaft sprockets is 5" then 1/2" of thickness would need to be milled or surfaced off. If the distance was less, then a plate of sufficient thickness would be added. The jack shafts will be eventually welded together, but the two sprockets must remain parallel to one another in order to run true. I use a 3/4" motor shaft cut off an old electric motor to perfectly align the two sprockets together for welding, prior to welding bevel the pieces for good penetration. After welding remove the alignment shaft & ream the 3/4" hole to accept two appropriate sized press fit bearings , flush mount on each side. I also drilled the remainder of the 3/4" hole 1/32" oversize. These steel jack shafts have a key way broached into them and a set screw is used to hold the key in place. Since the key way is useless in this application I use the set screw hole as a lube point & the over sizing of the 3/4" shaft hole allows the lubricant to flow a bit easier. Zert fitting will work in the same set screw location as well. The bearings are just lightly press fitted.
Another lock collar is placed just out board of the two co-joined free wheeling sprocket carriers & locked in place. If attention is paid to detail then all chain lines will be straight and the primary & secondary chains running parallel.

This seemed a quick and effective way for me. It probably took more time to write this post than it did to make the co-axle sprocket carrier, though the bottom bracket and axle itself took quite a lot more time. I could have milled sprocket carriers and bearing carriers out of aluminum or steel and just bolted sprockets to it & made it easier to experiment with sprocket swap outs, but with a 5 speed just didn't think I'd need to. Hope this helps for your Merkel. Rick C.



Great build Rick C!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 03, 2016, 04:50:53 PM
Thanks Rick that's going above and beyond on your part. I really should pay attention to the time while I post or just keep them simple. Long two days and made progress. I shortened the handle bars by 4" & replaced a throttle cable which oddly enough pulled free from the lead connector in the throttle. I don't remember that ever happening before.

Ran the Copper Gator some 45 minutes of no load while tuning and tinkering. Really starts well & I was able to slow the idle to 1200 rpm & she holds it unattended after the motor warms a bit. Spent some time adjusting the springer fork and front disc brake, during the last ride I noticed the brake caliper was not adjusted properly & the forks were pitching on moderate braking even though the brakes weren't gripping well. Just a part of setup.

I also added two small mirrors...a safety thing even on short test rides. Added a copper feather to the fork & a cool vintage brass & silver "Correct Cycle" on the strap spring just forward of the saddle. I was very careful not to damage a piece of history & it can be removed without harming it.

Also mounted the copper exhaust...not yet permanent but this is exactly how it will sit. The exhaust exactly parallels the upward sweep of the bottom frame tube. I've done my best to show off and complement the lovely original lines of the Servi-Cycle tube frame...though only about 16" inches of tubing in the steer tube area still remain. I'll post the exhaust photos later.  Rick C     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 03, 2016, 07:22:24 PM
Gator later photo post.  Exhaust parallels the bottom frame tubes.  Stainless exhaust manifold will be glass wrapped in black & secured with stainless zips after silver brazing, copper to copper joints will be sweated as well. Exhaust is secured by screws while testing. I use the Harley tube clamp for support of the back section of the exhaust as well the saddle air spring & shock. RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 03, 2016, 08:56:10 PM
IDK , that muffler is getting pretty close to where your backside will be when seated .

And , maybe it's just the pics , but the handle bar looks like it would be really uncomfortable in that straight back position . Seems like you'd have much more control and comfort if the grips were dropped . Maybe to the angle of the upper frame tubes ??? Maybe that would be going against your 'design' .

 Just musing .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 04, 2016, 03:20:23 AM
  I realize your going for the "minimalist" look, and I like what you've done...  I, on the other hand, probably couldn't stop, and would just keep adding more and more "stuff" I like the look of... maybe a black slotted exhaust pipe guard, with a similar design chain guard, small "bobbed" fenders, drop board tracker bars, and detail/paint the engine and engine mounts, etc... But that's me.  I just can't leave "well enough" alone.  (LOL, I love to paint stuff)  How fat of tires can you squeeze on it anyways???
   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 04, 2016, 06:58:45 AM
LOL guys, I love all your comments & can't find fault in any of the expressed views. That given my response is to both you guys kinda mixed together. I like your term "minimalist" & my adjectives used for that terms definition as applied to this little moto would include raw, basic (of course), vintage, long & low etc. "my design" is a moving target and as such I've had to "lead it"...get in front of it, in order to ever have a chance of hitting the mark. Original design elements such as maintaining and using the original Simplex frame shape to "frame" the whole build, vintage early day moto pedal feature, board track stance, vintage bicycle wheels (with coaster brake) small multi-speed motorcycle engine: these I've been resolute to retain. In my view I can't miss when I've got these constantly in front of me. All else is subject to elimination and or change and I've changed plenty & I'm not nearly finished! I too can't leave things alone and have a hard time EVER calling a build complete, I'm eaten up with the question. What if? Your comments mirror my own thoughts, not just in your most recent posts either.

I know it's hard to see in the photos but I did shorten the reach back of the handle bars by 4" in preparation for lowering the bars in line with the top frame tubes. It's will enhance the "board track" look & be more comfortable for me as well. It also will place more of my weight forward and that will enhance control a great deal with improved front tire patch/contact etc.

I've got a moto bike with a really high pipe design that is at least 3" closer to both my bum and leg & I've never felt the heat a problem. The position of the bicycle pedals actually keep the legs spread a bit & keeps the legs away from the pipe. The large "bobber" style saddle will also help, which my other high pipe design bike does not feature.

You guys are going to see a few changes coming up, additions and subtractions where necessary. A drive sprocket cover is one that was just suggested a few posts back. Thanks for the input and support guys. Rick C.

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 04, 2016, 07:21:41 AM
Carry all, The fork is "maxed out" with 2.5" x 26" on 2.125" wheels, the rear is mounted with same size wheel but has a 3" wide tire mounted and I'm sure a 3.25" tire on the same wheel would fit without much difficulty. I'm told the Coker "Simplex" tire mounts well on a 26" Workman's steel wheel & is speed rated. I have a set of these wheels, if I ever go that route I'll  probably re-lace with 10 ga. spokes... though factory 11 ga. are very strong wheels.

Going bigger on the front would necessitate a fork change & I'd just use a Simplex springer without hesitation. I have a good one that I'm going to re-build but am planning on to use it on an up coming V-twin 1920's dirt track style Harley Davidson tribute bike design (with a roaring twenties style cafe racer conversion) & yes it probably won't have pedals, yet it might lol.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 04, 2016, 07:51:30 AM
Carry all, The fork is "maxed out" with 2.5" x 26" on 2.125" wheels, the rear is mounted with same size wheel but has a 3" wide tire mounted and I'm sure a 3.25" tire on the same wheel would fit without much difficulty. I'm told the Coker "Simplex" tire mounts well on a 26" Workman's steel wheel & is speed rated. I have a set of these wheels, if I ever go that route I'll  probably re-lace with 10 ga. spokes... though factory 11 ga. are very strong wheels.

Going bigger on the front would necessitate a fork change & I'd just use a Simplex springer without hesitation. I have a good one that I'm going to re-build but am planning on to use it on an up coming V-twin 1920's dirt track style Harley Davidson tribute bike design (with a roaring twenties style cafe racer conversion) & yes it probably won't have pedals, yet it might lol.  Rick C.

Rick, if you change the front fork, go for a leaf spring front end!  I love the look of those old Indian front ends.

Your bike is first rate craftsmanship.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 04, 2016, 08:24:13 AM
I'd not even considered a Indian leaf spring on the Gator, but think it'd be rad. I'll certainly build one for the Indian style drop loop board tracker... with a kick start clone. What I've envisioned is a two leaf stack spring, girder design with small drum brake on a Workman's wheel. All business build with very little glitz. Thanks for your encouragement. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 05, 2016, 12:27:37 PM
I've had some of the copper worked to basic shape for awhile now & will be adding a bit at a time. Copper is a pretty unique metal in that what you think you created isn't exactly what you get. This is largely due to ageing of the surface actually changes from bright raw "cooper" color to form a multi-color "patina" that is very subtle & subdued not shiny & bright, but diversely & intricately patterned. It almost forms into a texture which is seen but can't be felt. All this is an ongoing process which actually never ends...the metal in this narrow construct could be viewed as living! Of course artist have recognized this for thousands of years, but in this tech crazed generation it's too often over looked.

Using this material in a moto-bike presents a visual problem especially when more than a few parts of larger size are grouped in proximity. Especially in photo viewing, but even on location. Subtle detail vanishes in the brilliance of raw copper. A heavily "hammered" sheet of copper appears smooth as a mirror in many lighting conditions. Patina will change this in due course, but while fabricating a piece or viewing it mounted one just has to imagine what it will look like 5 years from the day.

I've run into this in the past and have "chemically aged" for a patina effect & it helps a great deal, but to me it looks un-natural because it is! I may age the larger pieces of copper to help decide if copper is what I want in that location & later polish it off and allow time to form it's own work on the metal canvas, it's just more natural!

If copper doesn't work in a certain spot it will be discarded to the scrap bin. It's just difficult to know when it sparkles like chrome & hides it's beauty behind the gaudy glitz of color.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 05, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Patina or no , that's a nice piece of work . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/thumbs.gif)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 06, 2016, 06:04:09 AM
Thanks Mr. Pete this has been a really fun project for me and continues to be so. I actually shelved it for 4 months when my health became a concern, but I could have had the guys work on it some during that period. The fact is I lost any vision of what I wanted it to look like, but during the layoff I reset the perimeters of my originals design goals by expanding them while simplifying most of the fundamental components. Minimalist with detail. I can't deny that I very much enjoy having others approve of my work especially when they have a better understanding of what I'm basing my efforts on than I do. You guys know Simplex's & I just don't, perhaps someday I will, but I do know what I like and you guys have built some really sweet Servi-cycles...re-stores & mods.

I show cars and trucks at at 3 or 4 shows a year cause it's fun not for the trophies. I've been encouraged to bring my various moto-bicycles and enter them. Each year I decline though I usually bring one along to ride about the show grounds and it seems to gather huge interest. The Copper Gator will be an entry this year in the custom motorcycle division & I will show case it along with my Indian tribe of motos as a back drop not entries. Trailer them in pulled by the 1946 Chevy rat-rod pickup. Just planning some fun. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 06, 2016, 06:17:33 AM
Quick explanation about previous posts photos. Sprocket photo. I've decided to build a copper & steel cover over the drive side sprockets for safety & appearance. Also the exhaust is not yet brazed in place & the gas tank end caps aren't yet complete or permanently affixed. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on February 06, 2016, 06:39:09 AM
It's really nice to see someone work that has true skill at a craft.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 08, 2016, 06:10:06 AM
Thanks Rick I'm watching your stretch & know what you're dealing with... one detail at a time, while staying on track with your design. You & others warned me, early on, that the Simplex would be a tight fit with the 5 speed and I'm so glad I listened & measured...way more than twice; while proceeding with caution. You can't build without adequate space. I barely left enough room even after all that!

I really like what you are about and  what Kart Jockey did with his modified...he left plenty of room in his beautiful "stretch" machine for all necessary components. I don't try to inject myself often into other guys builds especially when I see they are proceeding beautifully without my 2 cents worth, but I do watch with great interest & learn more about these wonderful little motos. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: kartjockey on February 09, 2016, 01:08:49 PM
Rick C.  You are not so bad yourself!    Thanks.   You will have a nice head turner yourself to ride around in Portland this July!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 09, 2016, 06:44:13 PM
Oil lamp I appreciate your work as well, but if you had witnessed a couple of my botched attempts today... That said the day turned out quite nicely despite my worst efforts.

I pulled the exhaust after securing each section with screws & silver soldered with 55% silver braze rod. I'll finish up tomorrow by wrapping black fiberglass header heat tape around the SS section. I'll soak the wrap in water tonight.

Also mounted a small copper engine side plate cover. Hope to finish the round cover & mount it tomorrow as well. Still trying to envision a sprocket cover, but it alludes me for the moment. Most who see it think it's finished, but much remains to be completed.  Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 10, 2016, 03:08:50 AM
Maybe extend a small tapered chain guard forward, turning into a half moon "sprocket cover"?  Just throwing ideas out....
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 10, 2016, 06:09:48 PM
I like your suggestion & words like tapered, small & half-moon suggest style & are helpful. One local fellow said that it would probably tear my calf off...not inspiring & all he's built over the last 50 years is a beer belly.

Photos will have to tell the story for now. No they won't I haven't re-sized them yet. Post 'em later and see what you think.

I accomplished a lot today & kart jockey.... Portland sounds such fun & I thought about your not so subtle hint as I labored on the Gator. Much as I like the car shows they're really not excellent venues for bikes of any type. Average Joe wouldn't know a Shovel head from a Pan head and if you used the term Knuckle head he'd probably think I was making fun of him. A scooter and small bike gathering really makes a lot of sense & then there is the fun aspect. Trophies, who cares? Just show me the crazy cool & the well done. Summer is crazy busy here & I haven't taken a summer vacation in over 25 years, but I really haven't wanted to... till now!

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 10, 2016, 06:36:40 PM
Well then , we'll see you in Portland . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 10, 2016, 07:08:10 PM
My pleasure Pete. Few photos taken today most were worse than my normal low quality.
Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 11, 2016, 05:11:07 PM
Yesterday 80 degrees here in Indian Territory & 70's today. Worked most of the day & rode the rest.

Progress made in small details that are important to me & if you see the difference, maybe important to you as well. Good day, but the Simplex never left the shop. One of the guys was looking for the shop's cat "Ratchet" & one of the guys suggested that the Gator ate him. Seriously I brought it to the shop first week in December & in a couple of rides totaled maybe 3 miles.

Tomorrow the chains go back on and I'll get the rear set up & locked down...good weather forecast & I'm riding tomorrow. Don't need a chain guard for that. Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 12, 2016, 06:15:18 PM
Rode The Copper Gator for about 20 minutes this afternoon, no problems although the morning was spent making a clutch bracket that would give me enough adjustment to fully  disengage the clutch. It now works properly. Copper exhaust finally got hot enough to make some rainbow colors. No wind and 60 degrees a glorious day. It was 80 degrees two days ago & could go as high as 85 next Thursday. El nino been a good little boy for us here in Indian Territory all last year & to date.

This little engine has got some serious grunt just blipped it to cross highway traffic & felt the front end trying to lift even though the throttle response is kinda slow. Checked the plug and it's running rich, didn't foul the plug I'll wait till I run it for awhile at a brisker pace. Actually don't know what jetting was shipped with the Mikuni 22 mm, but feature going smaller, unless a hotter plug works. NGK will be replacing the no name it was shipped with. 

Steering... got to be careful not to over steer. It's very quick & reacts accurately to rider input, but if you stop riding and try driving her around tight corners you better be both quick and strong.  I'm thinking of using a stabilzer & or stops...at least till I get used to it.  All in all I'm pleased just not finished.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 13, 2016, 06:35:58 PM
Pete I took your suggestion and dropped the bars about 4" & the bike seemed much more manageable on my short ride this afternoon. It was difficult not to let her run a bit, but the first three gears are indeed impressive. A UK rider shared his organized racing experiences riding a CG 125. His reflections centered on the excellent low end power generated by the small engine & it would seem he is correct. I'd hoped to build a moto that excelled at a slow pace but could also pull quickly to cross highways & not impede traffic at stop signs. Think I can check off on those as done deals.

Carry all half moon on the chain guard it will be, thanks for the input. I think it will look just right.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 13, 2016, 08:11:23 PM
You as the artist/creator deserve all the credit due.  I just tossed out an idea.  The same/similar design may even work for the other sides chain guard possibly, if so inclined?  So many options when you combine the black & copper/brass elements your incorporating...Brazing rod is nice to use also.  It welds, solders, silver solders so well, and comes in many different thickness's too. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 14, 2016, 01:29:43 PM
The brazing rod I used on the exhaust is Harris phos-copper silver...great rod. Have to use a lot of heat... acet. torch a must, coupled with patience. It runs beautifully with the correct amount (a lot) of heat & large heavy piece of copper really absorbs the heat, but will get ugly & bubble gum if you don't use good technique.

I have a sheet of 20 gauge brass which I will eventually form into accents for  the copper. I too have a hard time switching off a build sometimes starting another one will wean me off a current project, but not always. One of my passions is art and I paint and draw, usually wildlife, and I've the same problem with a painting. When is it complete? I came up with what I call wildlife selfie,lol.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 16, 2016, 03:19:36 PM
Downward angle of the handle bars matches the angle of the top frame tubes as well as improving control. Of course that one simple adjustment dictated that mirrors, clutch and brake levers had to be changed as well. I also repressed the stem tube races & installed a different set of bearings. I didn't trust the top bearing as I had installed it upside down on one of the previous assemblies. Bottom line it felt right just pushing it across the shop floor and this afternoon's ride proved that it indeed takes rider input much better ;D and smiles are in order.

Wasted most of the morning on an idea that wasn't that great to begin with, but the day turned out well in spite of myself lol. I'm getting a little road dust on the Gator though & that's a good thing. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 16, 2016, 03:21:30 PM
Couple of todays photos.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 16, 2016, 03:28:43 PM
Starting to look a bit more like a rider . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/thumbs.gif)

Pete .. :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 17, 2016, 03:27:05 AM
Pretty cool.   The exhaust following the frame angle looks really good.  Be curious to see what "detailing" you may add, in time (IF you decide to add things like chain guards, fender(s), etc...) 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 17, 2016, 07:14:35 AM
Thanks guys I'm getting to the point that it's ride and discover, adjust & tighten etc. mundane but necessary. One off builds take some time to sort out. No major issues now that I found the top headset bearing was upside down. Old guy messed up. Ride is the best of all my bikes, long wheelbase, larger tires, saddle air shock all contribute to this.

GPS recorded 50 mph briefly yesterday. I don't recall feeling I was doing more than 40 at any given time. I'm running a 54 tooth rear sprocket & 1 st. gear isn't really necessary. 2nd. gear will easily "pull the wheel" and I suspect so would 3rd.  There is a noticeable gap going to 4th. which is common in MC gear boxes but I "lugged" it at what I estimated to be 30 mph without any bucking & it pulls smoothly from that speed upwards. I feature 5th. to be a non factor while running bicycle tires at this point.  The motor is easy starting, and the Harley clamp motor mounts are super. Other than the typical chain drive sound it runs up through the gears vibration free. It's super stable in straight line & balances well. I'm confident now in the turns as well. Power to weight ratio of under 10 to 1. 115 pound bike weight (wet) and 175 lb. rider. It's pretty quick & lively!

The braking with the 160 mm rotor and SRAM caliper is quite good. Didn't quite know what to expect from the disk brake combined with the Sunlite springer fork working with the aggressive rake angle of the Simplex head. Those things and the increased weight of the bike were questions going in, but seem to not be an issue at this point.

Carryall I will add a motor side chain guard, but never fenders...it's a style thing with me I want a board track/flat track look on this build...so minimal is the maxim. There will be style elements added, mainly in brass, but with a 9 day forecast in the 60 & 70 degree range I'm all about riding and adjusting at this point.  ;D (can't wipe it off my face)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 19, 2016, 07:00:29 PM
Did a bunch of small things today and then took a one hour ride, didn't intend to but it was a perfect 77 degrees Feb. day with only a slight breeze. On return I found no problems and the ride itself was flawless. I found myself staying in second & third the majority of the ride. This bike is a pleasure to ride at low speeds, never wants to buck...just idles along. Also the exhaust isn't real loud till it revs a bit, which I'm thankful for. Looking at riding again tomorrow as the forecast is for continued good weather, unseasonably warm. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 20, 2016, 05:13:09 AM
Considering the H.P. to weight ratio, and the 26" or 27" tires, I'll bet it'd "go" over 80mph in 5th if you wanted to hold on to it. (that's about tops of what my GY150 enduro did with its on/off road rear sprocket)  What kind of "normal speeds" do you envision using it for?  Are you thinking of doing "highway speeds" on it occasionally?  (55-70mph)  Only reason I'm asking is because I was curious if you had considered changing the gear ratio (rear sprocket is easiest) to make full use of the engines rpm range and all 5 gears.  On the other hand, I doubt there's a "record speed" at Bonneville on a modified Servicycle yet?  (hint, hint...worlds fastest ndian22 LOL)  (BTW, one of the "guys" on another forum I belong to, got his license and was accepted to participate/race in the Isle of Mann race this year, and attends the  orientation in 3 weeks.  
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 21, 2016, 04:30:35 AM
What an adventure to run at such a storied event! God speed & a lot of it.

Rear tire stands right at 28" & I have several final drive sprockets on hand which fit; a 36 tooth, 44, 48 & the 56 tooth which is currently mounted.The 36 is extremely tall & would quite likely be a detriment to reaching high speeds in 5th. gear. As my racing days are behind me it's all academic. Highway speeds with DOT rated Cokers on Workman wheels mounted should be easy to  achieve with the current gearing, as I nudged a bit over sixty, GPS recorded, yesterday in 4th. (the engine had plenty of power left in that gear) in a very quick run up to check stability at higher speed & the bike felt solid and very smooth. Cruising at 70 wouldn't seem a problem at this point except for my using non-rated rubber. I don't feature riding on the highways much, except where access to a destination dictates. Just a few miles at a time & not often.

My use of the 56 tooth would seem my best option with the selection of sprockets I have on hand & for the type of riding I'll be enjoying at speeds under 40 mph. To use 5th. much at all I'd probably need to go for a 64 tooth rear & they look a bit funky when mounted. I did ride some in 5th. today at what I'd estimate at 45 mph & it was fine but would take a lot of time to reach 55 mph, say, by just turning the throttle Dropping to 4th I'd quickly get back on cam for acceleration, but I don't feature riding much in 5th at those low speeds.

I'm a tinkerer so who knows to what purpose I'll turn the Gator, but with all my moto bicycles I'm pretty content at the speed limit or under. World's fastest Indian, Burt did that and had the T-shirt, I'm just the Old guy having fun!

I've heard veteran land speed record chasers comment that a motorcycle capable of 100 mph on hard surface would have difficulty averaging 80 mph on salt...kinda puts LSR in a different perspective.   Enjoy the weekend!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 21, 2016, 05:28:45 AM
I was just curious.  It actually sounds like your gearing isn't "off" by too much at all, if you consider/use 5th as just an "overdrive" for the occasional (smooth & well maintained) highway jaunt then.  The other option (as you know) is "dropping a tooth" on the engines drive sprocket, which is equal to adding approx. 3-4 teeth to the rear.  I've restored/altered some of the earlier Hondas (C100 series) which had dual rear sprockets (C105) to make them more "practical".  And of course, when I was young(er), I couldn't keep a front tire on the ground on a bike. LOL   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 21, 2016, 02:17:35 PM
Lowering the gearing to improve tractability in 4th. and especially 5th. will render 1st. useless, as it is now a 30 foot and shift catapult. Many 5 speed transmissions, especially on small displacement engines have a large gap between 4th. & 5th. for the overdrive effect for highway speeds while lowering the engine wear and fuel consumption, but the manufacturers also add speed rated tires and more robust wheels which is the answer to good utilization of all 5 speeds. Which will probably be what I do if I decide to register and tag it as a moped or if I find myself wanting to know how fast it will actually go. At any rate I'll want to use the Coker tires on 26"x 2" Workman wheels to preserve the early moto-bicycle look that I favor.

So you liked to pretend you could ride a uni-cycle too? I was king of the parking lot on a 125 cc Bultaco trials bike. Good times!! Rick C.

 

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 24, 2016, 03:30:56 PM
Had some serious fun riding today. Before leaving the shop I fabricated a temporary aluminum shift knob extension 1.5" longer which I can now easily reach from the pedal. Adding pedals to the Simplex created a lot of problems that had to be overcome and hopefully this is the answer to the last of them, if so I'll make a permanent shift lever with altered dimensions. The ride took about 2 hours & was uneventful...pure fun.

Starting  the Gator is easy, but again a pedal comes into play. Open petcock, choke, find compression & fire with a light kick while standing by the bikes side. The right pedal is first rotated to the 12 o'clock position before the kick start which allows the start lever full travel without pedal interference and start lever is returned to it's home position after starting. Took me a few starts to get used to the procedure, but now is no problem at all.

Shifting from the left pedal is accomplish with the pedal in a 6 o'clock rotational position, took getting used to, but with the longer shift knob it's quite easy, just somewhat different.

Rear braking is via coaster brake, so the pedal chain becomes the "linkage" that controls rear braking. Braking is actively engaged by either foot "back pedaling" but because shifting is accomplished from the left side with the pedal at 6 o'clock, I find braking to be easier for me from the right pedal lever. Getting used to the controls isn't difficult just different. The front disc brake & springer fork have worked great to this point, but I haven't panicked tested them as of yet.

Really just having fun with the Copper Gator & as long as the weather stays nice I'm putting off further changes for now, just riding and smiling a lot! I'll attempt some photos outside & away from the shop for a change of setting & due to greatly increased mobility.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 29, 2016, 06:25:33 AM
Did some riding that involved a lot of hills and twisty sections and found myself using first gear a lot, not so much for acceleration but for the great engine compression braking that both 1st. & 2nd. gear provides. Brake balance between front and rear is really quite good when compression, proper gear selection and rear coaster are applied in combination with the front disc and stopping distance from 40 mph is pretty impressive. Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 29, 2016, 10:32:05 AM
Did some riding that involved a lot of hills and twisty sections and found myself using first gear a lot, not so much for acceleration but for the great engine compression braking that both 1st. & 2nd. gear provides. Brake balance between front and rear is really quite good when compression, proper gear selection and rear coaster are applied in combination with the front disc and stopping distance from 40 mph is pretty impressive. Rick C. 

I didn't know you guys even had hills in Oklahoma!  Years ago I spent several months in OKC and as I recall it is as flat as a pancake.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 01, 2016, 05:29:19 AM
LOL, Rick Indian Territory is quite diverse in topography & Oklahoma City is the break point, neither nor. Go west you find the "badlands" (where the richest farm and ranching land is found, go figure) & the hilly, heavily timbered land is to the east. I'm located in the southwest corner of the state which is topographically quite diverse ranging from rolling terrain shot through with rivers, creeks and canyons to the highest "mountain" in the state which is part of the largest of two mountain "ranges" located in this area. Mt. Scott (just off the military reservation of Ft. Sill at Lawton, Ok.) I was recently told, by a competitive young bicyclist from Colorado Springs, that Mt. Scott was the toughest accent he's ever climbed on a bike, the grade is pretty intense if a 20 something road racer marks it as the worst! Those who only see Oklahoma from the interstates might have a similar impression as your own & I also agree that the interstate drives are pretty much yawners.

A few years back my favorite niece came for a week long visit & photographed just the S.W. quadrant of the state. Repeatedly she commented that her friends back home were not going to believe how truly beautiful Oklahoma is. I kinda like the setting of her home as well... on the big island, Hawaii!  Come ride, I've got spares or bring your own and don't forget the camera. Rick C.

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 06, 2016, 01:42:40 PM
Added a steering damper/stabilizer/stop. Precaution only as I noticed when pushing the bike around the shop the steering would suddenly "break" right or left at about 35 degrees of angle. Two Harley clamps with foot peg attachment, coupled to an MC stabilizer fixed that. I hadn't noticed any bad ride or handling problems just that slow speed quirk around the shop. I set the damping about mid range & it slowed the steering speed a noticeable amount and decreased the rough road feed back to my hands, which I greatly appreciate.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Eitek1 on March 08, 2016, 11:43:25 AM
Could you provide the location and part number for the rims that you used. I looked for the Sta-Tru wheels in that size with the disc brake and didn't have any luck. I did see the coaster brake option but not the Disc type.

Thanks
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2016, 01:54:16 PM
Hi Eitek,
Wheel info requested is listedbelow, but keep in mind I'm running a 3/8" axle front and rear on my Simplex Gator. If you'r running both Simplex forks and frame they are cut for the larger 1/2" axle diameter & require a special adaptor bushing to secure a 3/8" axle in the larger original 1/2" axle drops. Also keep in mind I'm running a coaster brake and chain sprocket and not a belt. As always one guys build can create problems when substitutions are made on another build & without knowing exactly what you're design is I'm just guessing. If you're wanting a disc brake on the rear as well as on the front then much more info is required. 
 
My vendor for Sta-tru wheels is Custom Motored Bicycles in Greendale, Wi. I've bought several sets of these from Lynn (414) 732-0017 comes right up in your search engine. She's a seasoned motorized bike builder as well & not just an operator of a parts house. Her site doesn't use part numbers. There is a yellow product bar on the right side to select product categories. Scroll down & click on the box titled "chrome rim heavy duty bicycle wheels 26 inch x 2.125 assembled in USA better chrome" and you'll see the Sta-tru's listed for both front and rear 11 gauge SS spokes disc brakes (coaster & free wheel). Good luck.  Rick C.




Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Eitek1 on March 08, 2016, 02:13:30 PM

Thanks for the info and thanks for the warning as well. I'm just getting started on planning my build. I purchased a frame from KartJockey and am getting my ducks in a row. I'm a measure 4 times cut once kind of guy. That being said, I need all the help I can get.

I'm planning on going with a belt drive and I'm weighing the options for wheels. I like the idea of a front disc brake but I have to make sure it works out for my build. Your info is a great help.

Jason
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2016, 03:07:42 PM
Jason I'm excited for you. I love the design phase & making decisions...even the ones that don't work out. If you decide to stay pretty close to the original Simplex design and run belts then good for you. The guys who've built the belt drives are the ones to seek council from & there's a wealth of information and talent on this forum to assist you. I'm devoted to chain transmission cause it's what I comfortable with, though I'm starting to understand & appreciate the Simplex & Whizzer designs, I'm unqualified to render advice in this area, but I'd suggest that building a belt sheave on a new wheel which wasn't designed for belt drive might be a bit more complex than just finding a Simplex rear assembly rebuilt or rebuilding yourself. Read the posts on this forum & learn why most stayed with the Simplex wheels & belt drive even on highly modified designs like my own. If I can help in any way let me know.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 12, 2016, 06:31:41 AM
Trial & error + persistence & I'm glad to report the steering damper a success despite not being certain I had a valid problem to begin with. Real result is less road vibration through the bars and that shows up in the rear view mirrors being   "clear" & hands are more rested after a long ride. 

Though I loved the Ram's horn shape of the bars I bent, I've replaced them with a set of replica Indian board track handlebars from Sportsman flyer. They just have that vintage racy look and feel that I'd wanted from the start and just wasn't getting from my bars. I have them on my daily rider & think I was just forcing myself away from using them on two bikes that I plan on keeping. I take pride on not duplicating previous fabrications, but sometimes being stubborn takes away from the completed project. Now the Copper Gator looks more like my concept of what a Simplex board track/flat track bike would have looked like if Simplex had chosen to go racing with the big boys, Indian & Harley etc., in the early years of moto cycles. Course Simplex didn't even exist as a company at the time, but that's my day dream and my build. Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 12, 2016, 07:26:33 AM
I really like those bars. I think they do justice to the board track look. Pat does great work, his bikes are really nice.

Rick, your bike turned  out great!  It was a pleasure following along with your build.  We need more members who take the time to document their projects so people can bounce Ideas off each other.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 13, 2016, 05:28:42 AM
Rick I sincerely appreciate your comments & accolades & the spirit of their offering. As you and I suspect a few others which participate in this forum are aware I post in a motor bicycling forum as well. I actually became aware of this forum as a result of reading several posts that mentioned you as taking over the helm of a Simplex group and I started lurking a bit, for a long while.

Participation...that's a big key to a forum's success & I didn't, though I sometimes thought I had something to say or share; I didn't. You obviously put in a good deal of your time in keeping things running & you have a good core group which support you, each other, new members and this site. Participation at Portland is a big deal each year and lifts the interests not only those who attend but also those of us who eagerly await the photos and stories attached to the meet.

This is definitely a special forum that will survive only if there is activity among the forum enthusiasts which will attract the hesitant among us who also appreciate the Simplex Servi-cycle and are willing to share their enthusiasm with others of like mind. Rick though you bear a large part of the work load, which is greatly appreciated; it's also the members that determine the post by post success of this forum. Sharing our passion in detail can at times not only instruct but also inspire others to dream, build and share as well. This forum has a solid core who eagerly share & hopefully others will stop lurking, as I did, and join in on a day by day basis... not just when they have a big project ongoing or a problem. Keep posting or start posting, but post. If I'm interested in what others have to share then so are others.   Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 13, 2016, 09:03:14 AM
Well stated , Rick C.

(http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/thumbs.gif)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 13, 2016, 12:14:31 PM
Well stated , Rick C.

(http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/thumbs.gif)

Pete . :)

x2!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 14, 2016, 05:39:38 AM
I've spent a couple of enjoyable days searching for an a handlebar setting that is safe, comfortable and looks "right", Pat at Sportsman flyer advised me to adjust for the perfect look for car & bike shows (photos) & change for day to day riding...very sensible approach & advice I'll follow.

The best "look" is with a classic straight "cruiser" stem,  with bar grip cap pointing almost straight down...racy look & totally a show adjustment, almost impossible to ride this way on the streets of course.  I've been using a stem adapter coupled to a 50 mm BMX bicycle "ahead stem" to mount the handle bars. I tried a 110 mm ahead stem that increases the bars forward location another 2" + and that greatly improved bike operation and ride comfort. After learning I was going in the right direction I re-purposed a new old stock mountain bike adjustable ahead stem which was also 110 mm in length and was fully adjustable through a vertical range of  0 to 55 degrees, with the push of a lever bar height can be adjusted on the fly (total bar goes up & down through the full 55 degree range of motion in an arc). It also features a tiny air over oil spring/shock to absorb & isolate the hands & upper torso from the fork & frame. I bought 3 of these from a dealer in the UK a few years back. This is the last of them.

With the adjustable head stem the bike feels much larger and for daily riding it allows the bars to remain lower than would have been possible with the shorter ahead stem...looks better. The little shock works like a charm & for ultimate ride comfort I raise the bars at the push of a button, but the bike looks better with them lowered. Compromise solution that works for me & also has real ride benefits as well. Side issue is the head light has to be relocated a bit lower as well. I'll ride it awhile before making the change permanent. Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 14, 2016, 01:02:39 PM
Flipped the light bracket upside down and mounted the headlight. Think I'll call it good on the front of the Copper Gator...for now.  RickC.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 14, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Looks like that might just work . I guess it would depend on how much travel that handlebar mount needs .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 14, 2016, 07:08:00 PM
Pete the photos show the ahead stem at it's lowest setting with the shock locked out, so the headlight is totally clear of the bars and mechanism. The stem & bar can only travel upwards from this point when the latch is disengaged, the fully compressed shock can't go any lower than the photo indicates. I took a 6 mile ride, according to GPS, today and the front end and controls functioned well. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 15, 2016, 08:29:16 AM
I thought the shock looked compressed , but wasn't sure it worked like standard shock absorbers .

That looks like a sweet set up .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 15, 2016, 07:59:12 PM
Here's a photo of ahead stem in the fully upright position. The little shock has about an inch and a half of travel when fully extended like this. None when fully compressed. The stem shock as well as the saddle air shock were intended for mountain bike use & locking the whole suspension out while "climbing" is essential biking technique for an efficient & powerful pedal stroke. Not so much use on a motorized bike though. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 16, 2016, 08:11:07 AM
I can see how that would add some comfort when you're not 'working' the ride .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 17, 2016, 07:32:37 AM
Pete I like that phrase "working the ride" one reason I'm still able to ride is a firm belief that sitting is not riding... on horse or bike. Yet as I approach my 69th. year I do appreciate a bit of comfort while riding. The original Simplex design was well thought out & comfortable. I recently was allowed to try one on for size by a friend who purchased a decently restored Automatic a few years back. I'm 6' 1" and it fit me nicely as was and that was no surprise as I have owned and ridden Mustang's and Cushman's that also fit my frame. My modifications to the Simplex design created problems galore, especially my insistence that working pedals be added. The last issue I've had to deal with is a severely cramped riding position caused by adding pedals, eliminating the forward foot pads, foot shift, coaster brake & the low slung Indian board track handlebars. The final piece of the puzzle and what ultimately makes this bike ride-able is the longer head stem.  Of course the half foot increase of wheelbase was vital for any of the design to work, but the stem makes it happen and still bring the look I was after from the start. As I've stated I loved the ram head bars, but not on this bike. Without the stem I'd have been forced to go back to the high bar look and also raise the saddle height and move it at least two inches rearward. It's funny how things work out, but this time a simple solution really saved my build as I would never have accepted the altered stance on this Simplex modification. In my opinion the build would have ended in failure had I been forced to make the changes noted. As it is I'm very pleased that the bike isn't at all cramped and retains the stance I wanted. I'm still building on the Copper Gator.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 17, 2016, 07:59:52 AM
Rick, Simplex certainly got it in the comfort department with the footboard design.  I sold my Sportsman as I simply hated the rear footpeg position.  It was very uncomfortable to ride.  If I should buy another Sportsman, it will definitely be a floorboard model.

As much as I love the boardtrack look, I don't think my back would like that bent over riding position for long.  I sort of like the long pulled back handlebars used on the very early motorcycles, where you sit very upright.  Looks comfy.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 17, 2016, 08:19:56 AM
Lol you're not wrong on my other board track style 15 miles is a very long ride indeed. Ricardo says " It is better to be looking good than to feel good." Guess some of us agree as we slowly recover.

Quick question. Are you still working on a Gravely bike build? Guys building a "very" nice Gravely engine/ transmission on the MB forum (board track forum) and your old MB Gravely thread was brought up by another member. Just a heads up to you aRick C.s I don't cross direct forum traffic unless it's forum specific and never offer individual information or updates.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 17, 2016, 08:24:45 AM
Lol you're not wrong on my other board track style 15 miles is a very long ride indeed. Ricardo says " It is better to be looking good than to feel good." Guess some of us agree as we slowly recover.

Quick question. Are you still working on a Gravely bike build? Guys building a "very" nice Gravely engine/ transmission on the MB forum (board track forum) and your old MB Gravely thread was brought up by another member. Just a heads up to you aRick C.s I don't cross direct forum traffic unless it's forum specific and never offer individual information or updates.

I haven't come across a Gravely motor.  If I do, I will consider it.  I am hoping to have my GS190 powered stretch ready to ride in Portland this summer, just need to find more hours in the day.  Working 6 days a week doesn't leave enough time to play! 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 17, 2016, 08:41:35 AM
Pete I like that phrase "working the ride" one reason I'm still able to ride is a firm belief that sitting is not riding... on horse or bike. Yet as I approach my 69th. year I do appreciate a bit of comfort while riding. The original Simplex design was well thought out & comfortable. I recently was allowed to try one on for size by a friend who purchased a decently restored Automatic a few years back. I'm 6' 1" and it fit me nicely as was and that was no surprise as I have owned and ridden Mustang's and Cushman's that also fit my frame. My modifications to the Simplex design created problems galore, especially my insistence that working pedals be added. The last issue I've had to deal with is a severely cramped riding position caused by adding pedals, eliminating the forward foot pads, foot shift, coaster brake & the low slung Indian board track handlebars. The final piece of the puzzle and what ultimately makes this bike ride-able is the longer head stem.  Of course the half foot increase of wheelbase was vital for any of the design to work, but the stem makes it happen and still bring the look I was after from the start. As I've stated I loved the ram head bars, but not on this bike. Without the stem I'd have been forced to go back to the high bar look and also raise the saddle height and move it at least two inches rearward. It's funny how things work out, but this time a simple solution really saved my build as I would never have accepted the altered stance on this Simplex modification. In my opinion the build would have ended in failure had I been forced to make the changes noted. As it is I'm very pleased that the bike isn't at all cramped and retains the stance I wanted. I'm still building on the Copper Gator.  Rick C.    

How's the saying go ?

As long as you're happy . ;)

Kinda like I tell my wife , when she asks if a project is done : It's done enough , for now .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 18, 2016, 02:32:56 PM
Pretty happy 2nd. oil change revealed very little metal, in fact the strainer was completely clear of debris. Not much seen in the previous change either. Transmission is getting just right and neutral is now easy to locate. Break in is coming along nicely.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 18, 2016, 07:08:26 PM
Muratic acid wash on copper starts the aging process up close there is greens, blues & red mixed with a deepening & darkening copper hue. It's also revealing the hammered surface texture too. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 18, 2016, 07:11:08 PM
Photos
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 18, 2016, 09:41:40 PM
I like that 'aged' copper .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 21, 2016, 06:26:33 AM
Pete I'm a little aged as well & have developed a patina of my own, without the help of muratic acid, yet haven't heard any complements about the change.

While finishing the Copper Gator I've been day dreaming about what a Simplex would look like with a V-twin. I told a guy at the shop I was going to build another Simplex & his first comment was I bet it's a V. I hadn't shared my vision with him though I have mentioned the possibility on the forum. I guess I'm an easy read. If you guys spot a Simplex, l frame I can cut up let me know.

No animals will be injured or abused in the filming of this build.

I will use a small V-twin engine, air cooled, 5 speed integrated transmission & no pedals! It will be a small motorcycle built in the 1930's style of dirt bike...kinda like a Simplex, Harley, Indian, yet different. Springer forks (reworked Simplex), traditional fuel tank 2.5 gal. ala Harley ...won't be a V powered remake of my current Simplex build and that's for certain. I'm leaning towards the Virago or Honda V-twins cause they are proven designs & complete engines and spare parts are readily available. I plan on going with under 400 cc displacement & favor the 250 cc at the moment which should build out to close to 30 hp & remain street able. I want to use this one for club events, short poker runs and be able to keep up with the big boys cruising at 75 + so gearing will be a bit tall, but with 5 speeds and my weight target of under 200 lbs. I think it will be fine. Antique frame registration so head, tail, brake lights & mirror & that ugly tag is all that's required along with liability insurance.

I'll probably stick with a "hard tail" but have a design in mind for an air ride suspension for the rear, if I can retain the vintage look I'll consider giving in to comfort. Still building on the Gator, dreaming of a V-twin & having fun! Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 21, 2016, 07:13:59 AM
Ha . Compliments ... I figure it a compliment if anyone wants to spend time around me , but that likely has little to do with what I look like . ;)

The V build sounds interesting .

That is a pretty bland looking tag :

(https://www.ok.gov/tax/images/Motorcycle.JPG)

Do they offer custom tags ?


Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 21, 2016, 01:02:53 PM
That is the custom tag! Mines just like that only personalized.... SIMPLE.  I guess SAMPLE was all that was left & how innovative to offer it in Sooner Crimson. Why didn't I think of that?   Actually I think all license plates are ugly!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 22, 2016, 06:29:51 AM
I've been looking at small V-twin with integrated transmissions & am leaning towards the Virago 250  cc it actually is not as tall as the 125 cc single in the Copper Gator. Shipping weight is about 100 lbs. & it's air cooled lots of engines and parts available as well. Not super powerful but it looks as if it can be reliably built out and fat cammed to about 28 hp without getting too radical for day to day riding. I'm not too concerned about power but I would like to be able to cruise at 75 mph to keep pace with the big bikes for rallies and local poker runs. I may run rear suspension swing but won't if the vintage look is wrong or the frame looks too busy. Minimal is a good look & in keeping with a 30's flat track theme, but rear suspension would be nice. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 29, 2016, 12:20:35 PM
I hope this finds all well after Easter trips & visits. I had time to enjoy others and charge my batteries so to speak.

Monday I decided to inspect bit by bit the Copper Gator & see if anything was suspect. One off builds are like rank stock bucking bulls & constantly develop ways to throw the rider off. Poor design, cheap parts, bad assembly practices, lack of cooling and or lubrication, off alignments, use of sub standard fasteners and crappy welding techniques or materials are just a few reasons of many that the fabricator/rider needs to avoid & be aware of. Periodic & frequent inspections are necessary to avoid problems some of which might lead to disaster.

Forty five minutes later several loose bolts are Loc-tite and torqued. I found that both the primary and secondary chain were too loose & the pedal chain just right...no surprises with that, but rather than just adjust I decided to finish the torsion spring chain tensioner I'd begun several weeks ago. I first looked into using an elastic torsion spring rather than an extension steel spring ( think screen door closer) cause the extension spring is so dang ugly! After my rather weak attempts using elastic I decided to use a small steel torsion spring and lever arrangement similar to what's used in a multi-speed rear derailleur on the typical Shimano bicycle system only much more robust and simple. My prototype is close to mountable.  Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 29, 2016, 01:11:03 PM
Pics of the prototype tensioner , Please . :)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 30, 2016, 05:18:17 AM
I still have one small but important part to fab, but this is roughly it. Though I've left a lot of material in place for final fit up which will be removed or replaced with appropriate sized materials after some run time & testing. Nothing really original here just re-purposed ideas that should look good and work properly. Not much going on but looks like a lot of parts involved till it's assembled & then it looks simple...which works in my minimalist viewpoint.

Total lever movement is about 1.5" of deflection at the nylon chain roller. Just a guess but I'd say 20 degrees of travel at the torsion springs leg end and maybe 15 lbs. of resistance on the roller. This should be enough to control the relatively light unsupported section of chain involved.

Belts make a lot of sense yet I'm still using chains typically 2 chains but on this build three all wear at different rates and on the Copper Gator the pedal chain may never wear to any appreciable degree. Substantive axle adjustment alone isn't a possible solution to dual chain wear, thus the necessity of half links and or tension device on the chain that recieves the most wear. The spring tension types run smoother and quieter than a fixed idler type...though I'm tempted to run both at the same time on this one, if chain slap (side to side movement) with one is a problem. I've not encountered this with the current idler sprocket and running a sprocket on the spring tensioner is quite probable as well...I'll see.

Still more changes to come but at the moment I see this as the only one that is substantive & till it's completed the Gator will be relegated to the bike stand. Rick C. 

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 30, 2016, 08:46:57 AM
That seems like it will do a better job than the 10 tooth idler .

I created a similar set up on a Honda CB750 I use to have . I used the center stand as the base / attachment point . The original center stand spring was just a little weak , but it did a good job . Had I kept that bike , I would have installed a stronger spring .

(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/HPIM0554.jpg)

That^ pic was taken about a month after initial installation . That tensioner worked well and definitely extended chain life .

Pete . :)





Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 30, 2016, 11:01:07 AM
That's creative use of an existing structure Pete! Variable chain tension does extend chain life, reduces vibration & 4 out of every 5 chain adjustments...which is time consuming on my double chain final drive setups. Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 31, 2016, 05:13:28 AM
I decided to use the automatic spring tension lever with the nylon roller mounted. I also am running  the manually adjustable idler sprocket in conjunction with the automatic. The thought behind this was to shorten the chain section length which is mainly supported by the torsion spring lever. The lever & the vertical chain movement is cut by 100% of that noticed when the automatic spring lever is used alone. All of the mechanism is mounted inside the frame tubes, mounting is a bit crude but solid at this point of testing. I'll tidy all after proving. Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Sonrisers on April 01, 2016, 08:29:48 AM
Rick C., I have been "silently" watching the progress on this project since day 1....and I must say I'm impressed with your workmanship and creativity. I haven't had as much time to play on the forum as I used to, but I still try to catch up once or twice a week. I like the copper you have integrated into the design, it really highlights it.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 02, 2016, 10:03:01 AM
Thanks for the props. I lurked for many months before joining & then took a 4 month "sabbatical" in the midst of my Copper Gator build without posting...life happens. I have taken a liking to your Yellow fellow '55 though. I have a background in restoration & admire original, though I've been concentrating on modified for a good long while now. Only stocker I have at the moment is the '48 Chevy sedan 100% original & runs/drives like new. Kettle corn was instrumental in a "come to Jesus moment" in my life...it's a powerful force & not to be taken lightly!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 03, 2016, 01:26:47 PM
Motor drive side showing the idler sprocket "fixed tension" & the torsion spring "automatic" chain tension lever working together. They provide a very smooth solution to keeping the final drive chain located and under control.
I've started adding brass acorn nuts to lend a finished "classic" look to my little ride. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 09, 2016, 10:34:33 AM
Well had a windless day so mi amigo y yo decided to see if my GPS was accurate on "speed" runs and he knew a guy who has a nice  private air strip in a remote area of grass land not too distant. We loaded the Copper Gator & spent a few hours tuning and riding the little beast, still think it ate the shop cat, nice morning cool air & no wind. The strip is asphalt & real smooth and almost a mile in length. Story is the owner was an old hippy back in the early '70's and flew loads  of some "special" grass to big city folk. Probably just a story anyhow luck ran out on him & he did time for his misdeeds rehabilitated, and returned to raise proper livestock fare for a living. Must me money in it cause he sure has a nice place, course they also raised a few oil derricks as well & there's a living to made there as well.

Pleasant day all in all. GPS is close enough for Government work. Drill was to measure off a quarter mile, ease up to 65 mph at the quarter. The truck leading the bike by approximately 75 yards. With the trucks speed control set at sixty five he held that speed for another eighth mile before breaking. I at that point also started breaking. Four runs, only one was inconsistent and that on purpose as I wanted to visibly gain some ground on the truck while it was on speed control. Results on the GPS were plus or minus 1 mph on the three consistent runs at 65 mph and 76 mph as the peak speed reached that day on the closure run.

Tire pressure was checked after each run & tires were allowed to cool back to ambient. Tire temperature was also read each time as well. The Vee brand front tire varied very little. The 3" Kenda  did increase more(% wise) in pressure & temps were higher of course. Vee brand Nola 26" x 2.5" max pressure 65 lbs. I ran at 60 pounds. Kenda 3" cross section max pressure 45 pounds pressure. I ran the rear at 40 lbs. Cool morning, 70 % humidity. Temps didn't get much higher on the 4 test runs than cruising for 20 minutes at a constant 40 mph later that day when the ambient temp was 15 degrees warmer. Quality digital gauges were used for both pressure and temp readings.

I'm now assured my GPS is accurate & I'm gaining respect for the Vee NOLA tire. The importer/distributor has stated that his goal when commissioning the design & production of his Kevlar tire was to surpass that of the Coker Simplex brand at a competitive price in the New Orleans pedicab industry. He may have succeeded. I can't wait till the Vee NOLA are back in stock...I'm ordering some more, though the Kenda tested better than expected, the tire is just whimpy feeling when compared to the Vee NOLA. Though I'm not a fan of the "look" Flame or Hookworm tread patterns they really perform quite well. Won't be going faster on the Copper Gator till I get the Vee Nola's mounted on a new pair of Worksman wheels front and rear.

So far the little beast has been surprisingly lacking in the unexpected.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Eitek1 on April 09, 2016, 09:42:27 PM
Rick,

NOLA tires has a 2.125 inch tire in stock if you want to give it a try. He gave me a set to mount up and see how I like them. He actually said it should be a tougher tire because the Kevlar strip used covered more of the surface area of the tire. I have the rear worksman rim with the tire mounted and it seems fine.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 10, 2016, 06:42:36 AM
Glad to hear from you,hope all is going well on your project. I'm currently running the 2.5" Vee NOLA on the front of my Simplex Copper Gator & a similar 3" flame tread pattern on the rear (not at all heavy duty like the NOLA) 2.125" will of course fit the Worksman or my current rims but are just not wide enough. I'm hoping they will eventually decide to commission a production run of the 3" Vee NOLA's but, for now, I'm good waiting for the 2.5" as my Worksman rims are on back order from my supplier as well. Greg at NOLA told me the next shipment was 30 days out so I'll be checking back with them from time to time on arrival status.

The Worksman wheels are definitely up to supporting a lightweight Simplex moto & reasonable load & quite a few are mounting the Worksman wheel with Coker Simplex tires already. Multiple spoons are recommended for mounting, but I also used a few levers to mount the Vee NOLA's to my current wheel.
 
I'm still studying side car information & not finding exactly what I'm looking for in an articulated design. The original one you shared was the best I've seen. It really looks well thought out & executed prototype. I've found many interesting body style and suspensions as well, but not really settled on my ideal. Still prefer the old Indian "look" I suppose. Well good then, Cheers. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 10, 2016, 08:13:53 AM
Rick, did you order steel or alloy workman wheels?  I know the coker simplex tire goes right on the steel wheel, but I have heard they are very hard to mount on the alloy rim.  I am just guessing, but I have a feeling the alloy rim is taller in the rim sidewall, if that makes sense?

NOLA really needs to make a tread that is old school, either ribbed or button.  I think either would sell like hotcakes to the motored bike crowd.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 10, 2016, 02:58:49 PM
Hey Rick, I ordered chromed steel as I'd read the Coker was a tight fit with the aluminum Worksman. The Vee NOLA was a very snug fit on the Sta-tru steel wheel which isn't nearly as heavy duty as the Worksman. Seem's Pat D. @ Sportsman has mounted the Coker's on the Worksman aluminum and it wasn't a one man job or something done on the apron, real fight to the death. I read it somewhere; anyway I do know Pat uses the aluminum often. I like steel for classic but seen powder coated aluminum that was lethal.

Spot on with the vintage tread. They're giving away a huge market in the board track/ vintage motorized bicycle market & I've discussed it with them as has Eitek1, who lives in area...trying to encourage them. Coker can't impact the moto bicycle world but a shipped price under $70. ea. would sell well to that lot with proper period styling & a bit of promotion. I'll continue dialog with them & encourage others to do the same.

After mounting and testing, Bob's your uncle, I'm convinced it's a motorcycle tire disguised as bicycle rubber & my hub and wheels are now the weak link. I'm truly not interested in how fast but how safe & I really like large margins of performance not normally used though readily available.  Still inquireing & fine tuning. Rick C
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 10, 2016, 03:22:05 PM
Yeah, I read about Pat's struggle getting them on the alloy rims, that is why I asked.  

I am not a big fan of disc brakes on the early period type of motorbike builds, but I see why people do it from a safety standpoint.  Simplex front brakes are really weak, but I like the look, so I try to use them if I can find them.  I wonder if the Harley Hummer, or other such era bikes, had brakes that worked better?  I would like to try one, to see if it made a difference.  I believe they are 36 spoke, same a a simplex, so it would be simple to lace one into a simplex or worksman rim.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 11, 2016, 07:45:29 AM
Rick that Hummer brake is quite good looking, doesn't visually "overpower" the front of the bike, can't speak to the stopping power though. I do recall the brakes in general of that period were good for 2 or three good "pulls" in agressive mountain riding & then not much left. Simplex front's are attractive, but I gather hard to come by, which is a shame. I recall the small Italian bikes of the '60s (Ducati perhaps) had a great looking little brake, built with watch like precision, but don't remember if they were 36 or not. The Brit, Ludwig, on MB forum is a wealth of euro bike trivia; he'd at least point a guy in the direction of more source material. Actually the S-Archer is a nice looking item, though you'd have to judge if it was close to the Simplex in stopping power.

I'm not fond of the "disc" look either, but love to use the heck out of them. Back in 1967 I was allowed to test drive a Shelby 427 "side-oiler" Cobra (HP undisclosed but know to be unlimited) & a 427 435 hp (HP under rated but limited) Covette stingray coupe in the same week. I'd come into some bonus money and decided to blow it on a new set of wheels....your only young once. Both 4 wheel independent and with all disc brakes.
The most impressive thing on both cars were the brakes. I've been sold ever since.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 11, 2016, 09:19:40 AM
Rick If you check my board track thread on MB (last page) some info from Ludwig on a 36 hole moped Atom/Motobecane brake with good photos, description & input. Lace up to as large as 8 gauge spokes. Also a few other directions one might take. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 11, 2016, 01:50:28 PM
Rick If you check my board track thread on MB (last page) some info from Ludwig on a 36 hole moped Atom/Motobecane brake with good photos, description & input. Lace up to as large as 8 gauge spokes. Also a few other directions one might take. Rick C.

Rick, I read through that.  Good info there.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 11, 2016, 03:02:12 PM
Hey Rick you might check back into the thread later tonight or tomorrow 'cause good stuff is still coming in, after that I'll give you a heads up on interesting material. I've already scoped out a couple of items & great info for myself from Myron's. RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 30, 2016, 05:43:29 AM
Hard to believe that almost 3 months have past by since I took the "Copper Gator" out for the first ride. 3 oil changes later & I'm calling her officially broken in. I'm quite pleased with the results to this point and don't hesitate to select her for my daily rides. To this point I've had no issues with her save the expected "should have used lock tite" moments, but even those ended weeks ago. I'm still waiting on NOLA to get a shipment of 2.5" Kevlar Vee's back in stock as I've started a Harley Davidson 1920'ish theme bike build using a Sportsman Flyer Loop frame coupled to a Simplex springer fork & another Honda (style) CG 125 cc 5 speed engine. So I'll order a pair of NOLA's for that build as well. 

Great riding this Spring as we've had lots of rain and the countryside is quite beautiful. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 30, 2016, 05:54:50 AM
Hi Rick, I've been following along over on the other forum.  Your H-D project is going to be really nice!  I think you should convert the Simplex springer on it to internal springs, that would really look H-D.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 30, 2016, 10:52:14 AM
Thanks Rick for posting the two photos. The board track style bike with key points highlighted is close to where I'm heading. Not trying to duplicate exactly a specific machine or year, but representing an era between 1910 & 1930. The simplex forks look remarkably similar to the base Harley design, but as you noted the small diameter springs were usually (but not always) enclosed in a tube with a slot on the inside to expose a section of the spring. This tube was topped with a brass cap. I intend to modify the Simplex design by adding a tube (copper,brass cap perhaps) and I also plan on re-enforcement of the large legs with a decorative, yet functional, angled "girder" as was used on many non-springer HD forks (especially racers) and some racing springer forks as well. I treasure the Simplex cast fork, leg rockers. They are cleaning up very well and will really stand out in a bicycle world of flat plate rockers/toggles. I'll be using a small brake drum 36 hole hub laced to a Worksman rim with 10 gauge stainless spokes. I'll be using Pat's flat tank Harley for fuel and his HD board track bars as well. Bars will be mounted to the steerer head plate with aluminum 2 inch risers   clamped with "half moons".

I had planned the modifications for use on the "Copper Gator" bike but got so far along in the build with the Sunlite springers that I just couldn't visualize the change of forks.  Should be fun, parts still coming in with more on order. I think my saddle builder will again be Rich Phillips out of Missouri. He has built my last two small "bobber" saddles and the quality is first rate. They aren't copies of the Messinger (which I like) built saddles, but they have a board track look and feel about them & I've never seen a motorized bike, with the exception of my own, that featured his work. Unique in a me too world... so sue me. Lol

If deemed appropriate I'll post a few photos along in this thread. Pm me if that's not a good idea. V twin is kinda on hold due to lack of design inspiration...I'll lock on to the engine /frame combination eventually and that will prompt a design and theme to build on &still haven't ruled out another Simplex frame build. Hasn't happened yet, whereas the Harley/ "loopframe" just popped into mind one evening during a discussion of early cycle sidecar combinations...go figure!

                                                                  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 30, 2016, 11:03:57 AM
Feel free to post your new build here!  Everyone likes to see something different.  As far as I'm concerned, if you are using a Simplex fork, it is part Simplex!  lol
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 30, 2016, 12:45:01 PM
Thanks Rick, actually the fork weighs more than the Simplex neck, spring and drops, which were the sum total of Simplex parts utilized in the Copper Gator build. I'll update from time to time on the HD project. I wouldn't have started the new build if it wasn't for the forks. I tried to hide them but they wouldn't leave me alone kinda like the demented Mopar Christine in the Stephen King novel.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 02, 2016, 04:43:47 AM
This is the start of my kinda like a Harley board track racer build. Frame is a steel Sportsman Flyer classic loop style frame, beautiful vintage lug and brazed connection fabrication using DOM tube. There will be some major changes made in the down tube & loop section of the frame to  allow the CG 125 5 speed engine to fit lower & forward in the frame. This is the same modification that Harley came up with for both their board track and dirt track racers & dubbed the "Keystone" frame. Indian followed suit shortly thereafter with the same mod to their loop frame racers and it's referred to as the "Marion" frame.

Harley racers & fans referred to the single cylinder racers as "peashooters". Some of the big V-twins were modified as well into single cylinder racers by removing the back jug and blocking the hole in the case. This was done to comply with class displacement rule changes. These were nicknamed half Harley's. With the integrated 5 speed case I think the CG 125 looks a bit like the big case half Harley's.

Harley also used a small dual spring fork for over a decade which the Simplex fork bears an uncanny resemblance to. I'm using one on this build. I'll post progress from time to time.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 04, 2016, 04:26:53 AM
Posting on another forum and realized I'd neglected to ask you guys who are the Simplex experts, a very important and fundamental question about the Simplex design fork I'm using on my Peashooter Harley build. How well does fork work on the stock Servi-cycle bikes or trucks or on builds utilizing retrofit engines with more weight and power & at higher speeds.

Detailed input is welcomed... pro or con & will help determine the extent that I'll need to go with any modifications such as damping rebound etc. I'm really more than a bit embarrassed about not asking this question sooner... a real rookie error, perhaps just an old guy's arrogance or some of both! I truly appreciate the forums individual and collective experience.

                                             Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 04, 2016, 05:08:16 AM
Simplex springers ride smooth.  The only thing to remember is they are a leading axle design.  What this means in the real world, when you brake, the front end rises.  This is a weird feeling, and takes some getting used to. 

Simplex did everything on the cheap to keep cost as low as possible.  There are no bushings on the top of the moving fork, they are a sloppy fit in the top plate.  This would be easy to drill out, add bronze bushings and polish the shafts.

To take it a step further, you could extend the rigid fork higher, add rebound springs on top and thread nuts on top.  I think this would help with rebound control.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 04, 2016, 07:19:24 AM
I'll second the 'smooth ride' .

But , I think the front end rising happens when the front wheel has brakes , as I've never noticed it on my rear wheel only braking .

I see Rick C has the same fork as my '57 which has nuts at the top of the spring fork and the fork springer washer ( # 323 : M manual ) which does take up some of the slop in the top plate .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 04, 2016, 07:30:09 AM
I'll second the 'smooth ride' .

But , I think the front end rising happens when the front wheel has brakes , as I've never noticed it on my rear wheel only braking .

I see Rick C has the same fork as my '57 which has nuts at the top of the spring fork and the fork springer washer ( # 323 : M manual ) which does take up some of the slop in the top plate .

Pete . :)

Pete, you are correct, only with front brakes.  Those fork spring washers are still very loose fitting, and can definitely be improved upon.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 04, 2016, 08:05:34 AM
Maybe Tom could make some spring washers that fit better ? Maybe even out of stainless . hint , hint ...  ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 04, 2016, 10:41:07 AM
Thanks guys I must say I'm relieved to hear the forks work well with the caveats mentioned. Pete your correct the forks are 1957 and have the bushings which seem to be a fairly decent fit in the top brace plate. I'll polish the spring guide rod till it shines. Harley had many variations of forks during the twenties and thirties. Several featured spring tower tubes above the top brace. These appear to rise about 4" above the plate Rick & contained the extra springing you mentioned. Some racing bikes featured a "scissor damper" utilizing two leather discs to control fork rebound. Crude but they worked on both Harley's & Indian's competition bikes. I'm pretty well acquainted with fork rise braking & rabbit hop on sprung forks. First time I noticed fork lift I just knew something was broke & probably fell off! Still can't believe I didn't ask you guys earlier about the forks. By the way are the bolts British thread on the forks? Rick C.     

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 07, 2016, 02:55:25 AM
Peashooter Harley build is up on wheels (kinda) I needed to take some measurements before going any further. Wheelbase 49.5" and fork trail 2.75" which are in my wheelhouse & should track & stabilize fine. Loop has 7" of ground clearance now. I'll be cutting the loop out and dropping the motor down 3" And bending the down tube forward about 3" as well to make room for the motor. I had one new Fat Frank's thick brick tire 2.235" x 26" and mounted it on Walmart wheel... stands 27.5" tall and really like the black rim so think I'll order black steel rim and lace 10 gauge stainless spokes to a Sturmy aluminum drum for up front.

Simplex fork seems at home on the Flyer frame & Rick you were right , even though the !957 has bushings they are too loose and will be replaced. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 07, 2016, 02:57:58 AM
Dropped a photo.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 07, 2016, 04:41:08 AM
The simplex front fork looks right at home on that frame.  Are you going to add rebound springs?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 07, 2016, 08:21:47 AM
Yes the fork blends in with this frame like I'd visualized almost two years ago. I'll add the girders first, but I'm leaning towards using the leather washer friction damper like Harley used between the forks to control rebound. Pat uses it on his Bonneville racers.  I might try both at the same time. Geometry of the HD & Simplex, while looking quite alike, actually differ plus there's a difference in weight and it's distribution. I hope this doesn't come down to error and trial though it wouldn't surprise me. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 19, 2016, 06:45:00 PM
Mounted the Simplex fork on the frame, this time using the proper headset for the Flyer frame. Of course the fork steer tube was cut just right for the Simplex, but the neck of the Sportsman Flyer frame is longer and the new threaded  headset race & lock ring wouldn't catch a thread. I tried the original Simplex top race & it matched the bearing size and threaded on about 7/16" to hold the tube & race in place, but not enough to use a lock nut on top. Instead I used a "star nut" from a thread less tube to pull tight against the race nut & effectively jamming the race in place. I got my Simplex forks in place, but just barely!  Next step is to fab a top plate for the tree on which to mount the half moon risers to which the Harley drop bars will be mounted.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 19, 2016, 07:20:24 PM
Will that 'star nut' also lock the head plate / set to the top of the steer tube ?
Or , maybe I'm missing something ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 20, 2016, 04:51:28 AM
Hi Pete,
No the top plate will bolt down to the top of the tree secured by the two large back leg bolts. The "star nut" which you probably know, but I'll explain for those who don't, is a special tube fastener which once inserted into the fork tube can't be pulled out. The star bolt serves the function of, a toggle bolt for sheet rock, once inserted the only way they or the star can be removed is to drive them deeper until they fall out the other side. The star is centrally threaded & a hardened bolt about 2" in length is used to secure the cap. The cap puts pressure on the Simplex threaded bearing race nut thus preventing the "race nut" from "backing out". That little bolt attached to the star nut also lifts the complete fork assembly & maintains the proper bearing pressure on the lower crown race bearing assembly in in thread less fork assembly...it's really solid, but that's not an issue with the Simplex fork as the bearing race nut performs that function (as long as it does't back out).

Think of it this way the star nut & cap serve the same function as the large original acorn nut which jams the bearing race nut, but because the Simplex fork tube was too short (or the neck of the Flyer frame too long) the plate will be cut out for access to and visual confirmation that the race and cap are properly in place.

The plate itself will be mounted using the top 2 fork bolts & the handle bars attached to the plate via two half moon risers 2'" tall to which a 7/8" Harley style "drop bars" will be attached.

Sorry for getting so detailed on the answer to any who are familiar with bicycle builds, but it's quite foreign to those who aren't. If your're wondering I measured carefully prior to pressing the bearing cups into place & realized I wasn't going the be able to use the new headset fasteners, but thankfully the Simplex race nut fit the bearing and was designed with a threaded step giving me the required 1/2" reach required to securely attach the headset. That coupled with a spare star nut saved the day & kept me from having to build a longer steer tube as well.    Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 20, 2016, 06:23:09 AM
I see what you're saying . As you intend , the stem is a lever on the lower fork plate . Maybe that lower plate is stronger than it looks .

It seems to me that having the head set fasten to the fork stem , along with the 2 top fork bolts , would be much more secure and insure that the stem could not deflect from proper position . The head set would also lock the bearing race nut .

Just speculating ...

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 20, 2016, 06:34:28 AM
Rick, is your head steering tube welded on the front end, or just a loose press fit with a wire retainer?  I have seen them both ways from the factory.  I think I would have just made a longer head tube, but finding a die to thread it would have been an issue.  It probably would be easier to just remove the tube, add some length and sleeve it back together.

Thanks for the explanation on the star nut, as I was not familiar with them.

BTW, I really like that motor the guy on the motorbicycle site is manufacturing.  I am just not sure how many he can sell at that price, as most of the builds over there are done on a much lower budget.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 20, 2016, 07:57:26 AM
Pete I'll cut out a paper top plate to show what I'm planning. it secures the top of the two rear legs together making the triple plate quite secure. As long as the race nut is securely in place the head of the frame neck needs no re enforcement. If you've viewed the Red Bull Rampage which shows the insane antics & stress a mountain bike is put through (30' vertical drops are ho hum to these guys) then you have witnessed how incredibly secure the forks the forks are when held in place with no top plate and a star nut on a thread less headset. If the Simplex stem were longer I'd have just used the traditional Acorn as a jam nut with the plate between it and race bearing nut, but the plate's main purpose is to hold the top of the two rear legs of the fork and/or become an attachment platform for the bars, switches etc.

Rick it is welded in place and I plan to weld an additional plate underneath the lower "crown" plate, leg to leg, with a steel tube in the center and about 4.5" in length running up inside the fork tube past the middle tree plate. This will virtually eliminate the possibility of a catastrophic break off of the fork tube from the bottom crown plate. The bottom of the tube & not the top is the weak point of the Simplex design, but I'm noted for being cautious about things which would probably never occur. I've been warned many times over the years by experienced bike builders not to slice & weld the fork tube & I have only vague reasons given as to why. ,  Perhaps the alloy used??? I was about to finally test this logic with a cut and splice, liner and 4 rossette welds & tig the butt joints when a truly simple solution appeared & I'm good with it. 

That engine is the bomb! I totally agree that price seems out of reach to most, but for those set on vintage it's pretty sweet. It will cost me a lot more to restore my HD knucklehead engine, but I'll price it around $7,500. & sell it before it leaves the builder's shop. Authenticity & quality sell in the right markets & I feature Pat D. is in that market & could offer a complete bike package to the upper crust patrons of motor art. He should be looking at Pat for an exclusive distribution arrangement. At any rate it's an extremely attractive package if enough of the base motors are available at a decent price. I wish him great success. "Many write checks that their banks won't clear." -anonymous_

Rick C. 



 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 20, 2016, 10:15:04 AM
Rick go to FFV8 website link on his last post. He is building the real deal with parts of quality and which are readily available. I'm actually getting interested. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 20, 2016, 12:30:26 PM
Rick go to FFV8 website link on his last post. He is building the real deal with parts of quality and which are readily available. I'm actually getting interested. Rick C.

I looked at his site even before I asked how much.  I'm assuming all the other parts that he talks about are HD? 

Rick, have you ever checked out Timeless Motor Company?      http://www.timelessmotorcompany.com/home.html
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 20, 2016, 01:37:29 PM
Yes Rick I have & also the equally impressive www. comebackmotors.com in Argentina for their complete 1917 Indian board track Power stroke V-twin complete replica bike and engine.

Looks like he uses some re-purposed Harley after market parts but the flywheels & rotation assy. are purpose built...with a lot of case machining, nice castings it appears & aftermarket flat heads & he's right the cases are well designed to "unit frame" the motor in a Keystone or just drop into a loop frame.

I sent Pat a P.M. & encouraged him to set up a dialogue to market a complete a Peashooter bike with or without engine installed as he has all the pieces: frame, forks, keystone mount, handle bars & Messinger board track saddle in his parts inventory. Just needs to add the vintage engine and the rounded mid twenties thru thirties Harley fuel tank. He also has the brand image and reputation that puts him years ahead of FFV8 in closing deals with established high end clients.

The big unknowns are FFV8's quality & the ability to produce the first engine runs, perhaps the first 8 to 12 engines in a timely fashion while maintaining high quality. Adequate financing of course is key to surviving the production and testing phase as well.

It would be wonderful to see it come about of course. I sold my manufacturing company in 1990 to a large multi-national group & retired. I was 44 at the time. I've just dabbled in stuff since, but I remember the excitement of introducing complex new products & the complications as well...good times, but I like now the best!  Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 27, 2016, 06:40:26 AM
Pete, top of the Simplex "tree plate" paper template cut & mocked up with surplus bars and "half moon" bar risers. I'll cut some metal today.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 27, 2016, 11:55:42 AM
That's pretty much how I envisioned the plate , from your previous description .

Hopefully , with your enhancements , the stem will stay true . ;)

And , I'm envious ... your shop , it's like someones living quarters .  ::)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 27, 2016, 12:26:53 PM
I'm having a hard time seeing it, but is your new plate going to go over the stem?  If not, how are you going to stabilize it?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 27, 2016, 05:18:07 PM
Hi guys, yes my home "office" often doubles as my shop during the early stage of gathering parts and modeling clean stuff the other shops not so much. I actually just like having them in front of me & available at odd times (which are often when I'm concerned).

Rick the frames neck tube houses the fork steering tube and two bearing races upper & lower are pressed into the neck tube and comprise one half of the upper and lower bearing headset support, the remaining bearing support is provided by the "crown race" (lower support) & the upper by the "headset" nut or cap. The steering tube is welded to the crown support plate which supplies the only support for the steering tube of the fork assembly in most modern fork designs for bicycles. You are probably saying "ah ha" at this moment because the Simplex design is motorcycle & you're right. I'm using a Simplex triple tree design on a 1910's design motor bicycle frame not a heavy modern motorcycle. The top plate can be used for a lot of things requiring support, but my main concern is just to attach the steering. The fork plate does not support the neck head tube, the frame does that, nor is it necessary for the support of the headset bearing or the internal steering tube as the two bearing races of the headset assembly complete that task. Two critical elements are required to make this Simplex fork work on this Sportsman Flyer frame the first being the original Simplex threaded headset nut bearing race, which being a stepped design allowed me to thread it on enough (3/8" perhaps) to hold the 1" threaded steering tube centered and secure all the headset parts and of course the fork. If the original fork tube had been cut about an inch longer I could have mounted the fork like any other threaded headset assembly, but wasn't the case. The second necessary component was the "star nut" bolt and cap assembly which is used on thread less fork steering systems. As I earlier described it I'll only add photos. The design of the star nut cap is really important too as is correct installation of this innovative fastener assembly which not only centers, & secures but also compresses the bearing sets correctly .

I used it as a measure of safety only as it performs the same functions as the threaded system only from an inside the tube design rather than external threads on the outside of the steering tube. That small bolt will hold a set of mountain bike forks on through a fifty foot free fall without failing...repeatedly.

Both the threaded & thread less fork design elements were used together, just in case. I also discussed beefing up the weld at the crown plate in a previous post...which probably isn't necessary, but just in case. Hope this helps though I doubt this problem occurs frequently lol.  Rick C.
     

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 27, 2016, 05:47:50 PM
OK Rick, now I see how it works.  I'm just not sure how comfortable I would be as the simplex lower stem support doesn't look that robust to me.  On the forks Pat builds, the stem is welded to another piece of tube, and I would even guess it is inserted into the tube and welded on both sides, not on a flat plate as on a Simplex.  I know how safety conscious you are, so I'm sure you have thought of a good solution for this already!

I am really enjoying watching your builds come together!  Thanks for posting them here.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 27, 2016, 09:02:13 PM
Hi Rick & thanks for following my builds. Pat's fork is really nice & competitively priced with other after market vintage style motorcycle forks that are usually not as well engineered as his. He incorporates several advanced features that were around back in the twenties and thirties, but not in Simplex's price range. It's a nice early fork design that Simplex came up with, at a cost point they could sell in their market niche.

If you will check my post 282, 2nd. paragraph I shared my thoughts on beefing up the Simplex crown fork plate with an additional plate & steering tube/ liner tube addition welded to that additional plate, running leg to leg & extended 2/3 rds. of the way up through the Simplex steer tube. Just as insurance against that single weld breaking as it is the critical connection on the fork and at the weakest point of most fork designs.

One reason for adding an enforced plate & tube at this point is the 60 year old metal of unknown quality in the steering tube & the filler used in the original weld connection. Just insurance.

You noted in an earlier post that .063 was the wall thickness used by the factory for frame material in & that's pretty thin wall even using modern alloy DOM 1" tube in the general frame sections. Pat uses .090" in his pedal bikes & .120" in the larger Sportsman 200 and Bonneville motorcycles. .080 is fine with DOM tube of good alloy in a light street bike carrying light loads or heavier with well designed frame bracing.

Pat's connections are lug design and brazed on all his frames so I have no worries about the "head" tube breaking off, just that one vital connection at the crown plate  is a concern.

As you guys know good design is just as important an aspect of building as quality materials and solid fabrication techniques & execution. No free lunches!

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 28, 2016, 04:42:14 AM
Got it Rick. I went back and read it again, I don't know how I missed it the first time around.  That sounds like a solid solution to me.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 28, 2016, 09:47:01 AM
Rick I often include too much in my posts & therefore communicate less to the reader than intended. Good photos help, alas my photo journalism sucks. Thanks for sticking with the details till it's somewhat understandable.

Took some parts to the real shop (not my living quarters shop. Pete) this morning & the guys must have been at it all night as it looked like a CAT powered Peterbilt had exploded leaving bits and pieces everywhere. I dropped off the parts & rapidly departed the scene of carnage much preferring bicycles in my home office to diesels on any Saturday, but appreciate the guys dedication to work on such a beautiful day.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 28, 2016, 01:41:51 PM
Cut the fork top plate from 1/4" aluminum. Changed the template to add some curves & just set the bars & risers on the plate for the photo. 

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 28, 2016, 02:46:23 PM
Nice design .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 30, 2016, 12:09:51 PM
Thanks Pete. Simplex fork modeled with zip ties and duck tape...not for use on any road or highway! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 30, 2016, 12:31:50 PM
I actually think adding girders (truss) has some merit. The apex of the girders would be attached by a rod welded to the bottom of the middle fork plate. I'll play with this awhile before deciding.  RC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 30, 2016, 12:39:00 PM
Brush guards ??? ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 31, 2016, 05:58:46 AM
With bars and controls. it would seem this forms the basic path I'll follow.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 31, 2016, 06:01:04 AM
Well hmmm, no photo...try again & do it right this time!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 31, 2016, 06:16:21 AM
Well hmmm, no photo...try again & do it right this time!

Rick, you can fix your message if you make an error, just click the modify button in the upper right of your message.  It is right next to the Quote button.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 31, 2016, 07:10:39 AM
Thanks Rick 'cause I make plenty errors!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 31, 2016, 09:19:43 AM
Thanks Rick 'cause I make plenty errors!

Don't we all!  I should start a "Box of Shame" for all my failed efforts.  LOL
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 31, 2016, 09:46:59 AM
Rick ,

Your failures , plus every member would have something to contribute . That would be the fastest growing thread on the site . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/laugh2.gif)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 31, 2016, 10:08:31 AM
Rick ,

Your failures , plus every member would have something to contribute . That would be the fastest growing thread on the site . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/laugh2.gif)

Pete . :)

Us guys that like to expirement definitely make our share of missteps.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 31, 2016, 01:49:40 PM
Workin' our way to the likes of Burt Monro . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 01, 2016, 01:30:59 PM
I have a hard enough time just being me.

Okay I beat some copper for the top plate, just mounted the top plate, but it has a smooth copper bottom plate as well. The other two plates will receive a partial copper covering only & none underneath. The bottom of the top plate is high enough and at an angle that exposes it's lower side & no one wants that on public display. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 02, 2016, 02:03:34 PM
Cut the loop out of the frame along with the down tube today. The engine fits but with only a little to spare front to rear...running pedals takes up a good bit of space inside the frame.
 
I've now plenty of vertical space the removable Keystone cradle mount is the key to gaining space and lowering the center of gravity. I'll have almost 5" of ground clearance & about 2" between the tire and down tube. Pedals, kick start lever, shift lever, exhaust all seem to be in fine position.

I'll flip the down tube cut off and use it again. Duck taped it for the photo in approximate position.

Rick C.

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 11, 2016, 02:54:57 PM
Been awhile since the Copper Gator Simplex was finished & I'm glad to report trouble free performance during the first 120 hrs. of operation. Longest ride to date was about 50 miles total. 85% of those miles were at speeds under 45 mph. I'm so glad I choose the CG 125 5 speed clone as a power plant...it's been very impressive, extremely smooth and trouble free over the entire course.

Since I'm building another bike with the same engine it's doubly good news for me! The Harley Peashooter build is slowly progressing & I'm including some updated photos for those interested. The Simplex fork is working out wonderfully well and most who are familiar with early Harley's misidentify it as a genuine Harley fork. Which is why I chose to save it for the HD build and use another type dual springer on the Simplex gator. The Harley actually has more original Simplexs parts on it than my completed simplex had, both in number and in weight.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 11, 2016, 03:00:33 PM
A note of explanation...the steel plates are the work support stands and not foot pads! lol Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 22, 2016, 03:27:50 AM
Some progress on the Harley.     Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 30, 2016, 06:07:46 AM
I took the Harley (not a replica, but a tribute) out for a pedal ride with motor mounted, but not yet running just to get a feel for how the bike works. I do this with all my pedal builds because without the motor running I can feel and hear the bike itself just revealing itself, flaws are readily "felt" on these shake down pedal cruises. I live in a town with quite a few hills, several quite steep where pedal speeds can reach well past the legal posted limits. Unfortunately some streets are in need of repair as well so I'm able to mix my trial rides with a bit of variety with which to pass judgement.

The rolling chassis/engine combination performed well, though my pedal gearing is so low that it just crawls along...uphill or on flats about the same.  The bike does pedal without much effort though.The Simplex forks worked really well as I'd been told by several forum members they would and I'm pleased that I selected them for my latest pedal moto bicycle build...I've had a lot of visitors stop by and look at the progress and most comment on the Simplex fork as looking so period correct for a Harley, which echos my own opinion as well.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 30, 2016, 07:21:24 AM
Shakedown runs are always interesting . Good or bad , they prove what you did .

About the pedal speed : you really didn't plan on having to really use those much anyway , right ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 30, 2016, 11:12:01 AM
Pete that's correct on the pedaling part but I do need the chain for the coaster brake to function. Testing on those hills I mentioned required a truck and trailer for the repeat runs. I'm just not in any condition at the moment to do much hill climbing although the 1.5 to 1 overdrive does pretty good on a climb...13 tooth up front and I think 24 t on the rear of the pedal drive lol. I can walk almost as fast as I can pedal this one on the flats and that would entail really spinning the pedal levers! The Simplex Copper Gator had enough room for a larger front sprocket which was a little higher than one to one ratio making it the speed king of the two while pedaling on the flats (by a couple of MPH) but the Harley would win in the hills no doubt.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 02, 2016, 08:23:19 PM
Put a saddle on &  the Harley is starting to look like something at last. Spring for the saddle was kind of an after thought, but it seems to work...still working on the saddle pan mount. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on October 02, 2016, 09:04:34 PM
Rick ,

IDK , that seat looks like it could act as a friction brake . ;)

What is the longish dark wedge hanging down from the front hub  , right side ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on October 03, 2016, 09:47:41 AM
Looking good Rick.  How comfortable is it to ride?  I've always wondered how those old board track bikes felt!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 03, 2016, 07:15:21 PM
Photos, Rides good Rick a lot like my Simplex and ride measurements are similar. Pete that's the brake arm haven't installed a bracket for it yet and the seats spring about the same as my Simplex with lots of room if I need it.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on October 03, 2016, 07:44:41 PM
Brake arm ... I should have figured .
It looks like it will have to use a bracket that allows the arm to slide a bit .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 04, 2016, 07:05:18 AM
Right you are Pete I have a metal clip for that purpose but I'll probably weld a "slip" bracket to the inside of the forward leg for safety's sake....rear coaster brake arms are usually "secured" by thin metal clips which routinely fail. I'd like to avoid brake failure of this or any kind on both ends of my bikes.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 14, 2016, 06:16:28 AM
Harley Peashooter coming along. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 14, 2016, 06:37:52 AM
Lookin' kinda flashy .

Is that exhaust going to be any kind of loud ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 14, 2016, 10:52:17 AM
It will be baffled to my satisfaction after I get her running...the Copper Gator's exhaust was adjusted quite easily with only a short baffle tube & is perhaps too quiet for some tastes. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 14, 2016, 02:36:59 PM
As long as the rider can hear the exhaust , it's loud enough . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 28, 2016, 06:38:59 AM
Our Fall has extended with beautiful 60 degree afternoons so a couple of longer rides have resulted. The last ended up being well over a hundred miles and the Simplex Copper Gator has performed flawlessly each time. We rode at a leisurely pace along back roads with several stops of interest included. Cruising was fifty-ish with some brief run ups to seventy. I'm loving the dependability of the 5 speed 125 cc very smooth & the air ride saddle is the best idea I've had in a long time. No way my back could handle a lengthy ride on a hard tail without it. Get out and ride while the weather holds & build when it closes in!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 28, 2016, 07:26:17 AM
It's always satisfying when a build ( your work ) 'proves' itself . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 29, 2016, 01:29:04 PM
Right Pete and she cleans up like new!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 29, 2016, 01:54:04 PM
Purdy ... purdy ... (http://www.cb750c.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/thumbsup.gif)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 02, 2017, 05:57:44 PM
Great way to star. The New year, riding my Simplex in Fall like weather...life is sweet! Wishing you all a wonderful 2017.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 03, 2017, 08:02:06 AM
Thanks for the good wish , Rick C . And , the same to you . :)

I've been riding the FA50 around in our 70 and 80° , sunny weather here in Rockport .

Agreed . A great way to start the New Year . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 04, 2017, 04:20:44 PM
Wish I was down there riding with you, cold here but got in a late short ride. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 04, 2017, 04:36:47 PM
It dropped to the mid 50s today . :)

Mid 60s tomorrow and 70s the next ... Hopefully , this is our 'Winter' .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 05, 2017, 09:52:36 AM
Highs here were -9 with 40 below wind chill. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 05, 2017, 12:16:15 PM
Brrr , Paul . :(

Definitely not for me , anymore .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 06, 2017, 07:32:22 AM
If it wasn't for daughter/grandkids, I'd be in a warmer, more exotic climate myself.  Panama, Belize, etc...Heck, even Mississippi.  LOL
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 06, 2017, 10:58:51 AM
We gave up Mississippi last year . This year we're trying Rockport , Texas . So far , it definitely warmer and a lot less rainy - about a third of what Mississippi gulf coast gets  .

Rick C , sorry for polluting your thread .
Maybe we could use a 'chit chat'  section ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 06, 2017, 12:51:40 PM
Pete I like people sharing thoughts and experiences with one another...may be my thread but it's still our forum to share. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 07, 2017, 07:09:14 AM
Sharing is what we're all about . (http://www.cb750c.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/thumbsup.gif)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 18, 2017, 07:35:53 AM
I replaced the saddle on my Simplex style build with a hand tooled leather seat that I'd ordered for the Harley Peashooter project. As I'm designing the Harley as a competition look I rejected using the saddle on it and am pleased with the look on the Simplex. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 18, 2017, 08:07:58 AM
Yeah , a scary skull might not be the best look for 'competition' . ;)

I can appreciate the intricacy of the tooling , but I wonder , why a skull ? Maybe as a reminder for the rider that if they get too crazy , that's what they could end up looking like .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 18, 2017, 10:49:32 AM
Hi Pete good question. My use of a skull "Warriors" mask theme is a throwback to my bad boy biker days lots of Harley scull accessories available both then and now, but after deciding not to use on my Harley tribute bike I liked the look of the saddle on the Simplex which being manufactured in New Orleans which is quite famous worldwide for it's festive carnival and if you've ever attended those festivities you saw a lot of scull masks in the crowds. So I think it's a tie in to the birthplace of the Simplex, and an attention getter, which my little copper bike is, and it's owner (who is a bit of a showoff) as well.

Hope your enjoying your Winter stay on the coastal bend of Texas. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 18, 2017, 12:01:53 PM
That seems reasonable enough , Rick . At least it may be a conversation starter . :)

We're experiencing a horrid ( ;) ) Winter here : It's currently 61° , with a high of only 62 today . Heck we even had a 5 minute rain shower this morning . :(  Tomorrow it'll be in the 70s and maybe a bit more rain . Nothing like Huston . Some pretty hard flooding there .
Over all , this is the nicest Winter we've had . And , yes , we're enjoying the weather .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 19, 2017, 07:48:42 AM
I'm thinking of going the "other direction" with a seat.  Keeping the big stock seat but, adding a full edge skirt without fringe, with patina spots/studs on the border in dark brown sunburst color, and contrasting color piping.  Maybe adding a small stainless steel seat rail on the back too.  I was able to talk with the artist at Heathers the other day at length, and he seemed interested in trying something new/different along the lines to this... 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 19, 2017, 10:26:26 AM
The stock SIMPLEX steel pan is a great size and shape and I like the saddle shown, but without fringe and a slightly smaller grab rail would be excellent and distinctfully different yet classy. Some basic leather tooling and or special stiching shouldn't add a lot to the total price but really makes a custom seat stand out as special.
Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on January 20, 2017, 05:38:59 AM
If I didn't already have the brown leather bags (and grips), I might have considered just doing the seat in black.  Either way, I have time to think some more on the details since he's really busy, and won't get to my project for a month or so.  I definitely wanted the full skirt starting at the seat nose.  It's a classic design, and will also help fill in the space under the seat and accent the frame line.  I figure the seat rail should go nicely with the rest of the stainless steel used on the bike also.  I had been debating on re-doing the seat since I've pretty much finished the bike.  On one hand, it's a 70yr+ survivor but, it is pretty rotted out, and is starting to tear around the edges and paper thin in spots, so, may as well do it now over the winter...I've completely "re-done" the whole bike to my own liking, such as the painted motor, fishtail exhaust, intake design, etc. so I might as well put a custom seat on it that I designed too. (I did consider buying another seat pan to "do", and keeping the old one but, then it would probably just sit on a shelf in the storage unit and be forgotten to rot anyways.  Why waste money?)     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 26, 2017, 12:47:15 PM
Harley Peashooter updated photos.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 09, 2017, 06:09:15 AM
I'll be starting a detachable sidecar build for the Simplex Copper Gator when I complete the Harley Peashooter. I way over built the new Simplex frame with this option in mind, just didn't want to tackle both concurrently. In the planning stage now but want to be able to haul an average size adult in it, yet keep the sidecar total unloaded weight well under 100 lbs. which coupled with the bike is still under 250 lbs. and that is less than the factory bikes produced by Honda asked the 125 cc 5 speed to pull at over 70 mph! I have no doubt the frame and engine drive train can handle the load. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 09, 2017, 07:06:41 AM
Sounds very doable to me , Rick C .

I look forward to watch that build .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 09, 2017, 10:18:11 AM
I love the idea of a "hack" on the Servicycle.  I've built a couple of them, last one from a 70's pedal car body for the grandson.  So many cool designs out there, it would be hard to pick.  I really like the look of the miniature VW Van ones, but wouldn't look quite right on a Servi IMO.  IF I did one for a "stock"" looking Servicycle, I think I would go with a small, classic looking canvas covered "military type" style maybe?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 09, 2017, 11:23:44 AM
Rick, build it and bring it to Portland!  I want first dibs on a ride!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 09, 2017, 12:13:54 PM
Lost my long post to you guys but will catch you all up later. Photos won't cut it without explanations as to dimensions etc. but the kayak seems the way I'll proceed and modify to taste. Should end up 5 and half long by25" wide and 16" deep, cut just behind the seat...,weighs less than 30 lbs. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 09, 2017, 04:47:40 PM
Rick I really would like to attend and meet you all and share machines and experiences, and let you guys ride my little bikes...you're first ride on the Gator and I'll sit in the chair. if it comes about this year it will be a last minute decision based on my day to day activities and getting a co driver to take a week off as well.

One day I will be 100 percent retired, but I've been trying to do just that for more than two decades. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 11, 2017, 05:46:31 AM
Couple more hacks.  I'd like to "find" a Vespa/Stella scooter one on C.L. for a reasonable price but, the one on the black bike would go on a Servicycle really nicely I think?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 11, 2017, 09:21:21 AM
Really digging the boat!!

I love those old Chris-Craft and Hacker-Craft boats.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 11, 2017, 11:23:57 AM
My brother in law had a very nice Chris Craft Runabout for a long time . They are a lot of work to keep nice , but there's just nothing like the sound of that inboard motor . I've skied behind it for many years .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 11, 2017, 01:46:28 PM
I'm not surprised that you guys got great taste in side chairs, bikes and boats. The nautical shapes really appeal to me, but that Vespa rig is a sweet scooter for sure.

Right now I'm refreshing my technical knowlege of hack design geometry for alignment, weight distribution and general balance and have quite a lot of material to review before starting the frame, but looking a the various shell styles is the fun part.

Thanks for input and interest. I never get tired of looking at boats and bikes.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 17, 2017, 05:45:43 PM
Just a few photos of the Harley Peashooter project to date.
Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 18, 2017, 09:09:48 AM
Great looking build Rick!  Did you ever get NOLA Tire to consider building a vintage look tire?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 18, 2017, 09:44:14 AM
Thanks Rick I'm. Just a few minor but esential parts and a couple of days from my first ride on the Harley. The rest is just getting details to suit me. Icve had the motor running on the bench twice so Icm pretty confident[  that it will fire.

I've mentioned it several times and they seem to take note, but that may be just them being considerate to the customer...I have bought 4 sets of tires over the past 12 months and really am sold on the product: though I thought I'd never get them (2.125" x 26") mounted on the 2.35" inch double wall rims of the Harley. The sidewalls of the Vee NOLA are extremely rigid, but ride well on the Simplex and mounted easily also...narrower single wall rim (2.125) but much wider tires (2.5" and 3"). They have mentioned that the Coker Simplex tire was the inspiration for the Vee pedicab tire. I guess they save $$ on using existing tread pattern molds?  It would be great to have a more period correct pattern.
 Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 21, 2017, 03:11:38 PM
Well guys color me surprised. The motor that ran on the bench just weeks ago is seized. First thought it was the kick lever mech but soon saw it was not at fault. I rotated the kick lever after the last test run to see if everything cleared when it was placed back in the bike frame, so it was free up to that point. I'm hoping it's moisture, if so it might not be as big a deal as it first appeared, that starter assembly is a real bear to replace and requires splitting the cases...major job.
I've filled the cylinder with Marvel. Mysyery oil and diesel that with patience and a bit of jiggling back and forth should free things up. I hope. Things don't always go perfectly and at least I'm still having fun.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 22, 2017, 06:40:10 AM
" I'm still having fun.  Rick C. "

That's the key . ;)

Good luck .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 22, 2017, 06:59:03 AM
Hi Pete, I woke up this morning quite early and went straight to it. I put the bike in fifth gear and rocked it back and forth maybe a dozen time with the plug out and felt it move a bit and kept at it gentle bumps and in less than five minutes the internals were rotating freely, found neutral and the kick lever could easily turn it over with the plug in or out. Though not complete and running I'm a happy camper. I'll drain, clean the filter and refill before trying a restart. I'll then circulate the oil for a brief time and again drain and this time clean out both filters and refill. I don't anticipate much debris because it broke free so easily and quickly, but I'll watch and listen for tell tale signs that all is well or not for awhile.

I don't have a clue as to why but suspect condensate moisture from the fuel can perhaps?? Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 22, 2017, 07:38:53 AM
"I don't have a clue as to why but suspect condensate moisture from the fuel can perhaps?? Rick C. "

That was my thought , too . But ???

Hopefully the 'oils' you soaked with will coat things enough until you get to the running stage .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 22, 2017, 12:24:56 PM
Hmm?  I've never heard/seen rings seize in that short of time on a engine.  Especially one that was recently run, let alone so new?  There would have to have been ALOT of water in the fuel system, and if so, how did it run? Could it have been the clutch plates seized?  Just to be safe, I'd drain the oil and open up the oil filter looking for metal and maybe drop the oil pan and inspect there for pieces also. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 22, 2017, 04:45:06 PM
Neither have I. I drained the oil it was shipped, a few weeks later refilled, started a run in for 15 or 20 minutes on the bench, drained and cleaned both filters. Refilled with mineral oil and it set in the frame cradle for a couple of months and 3 or 4 weeks ago I gave it a short run in the frame, no load,  and finally a few days ago went to start and it was locked up. No sign of water "milk" or contamination in any of the changes and only a very small bit of aluminum in the filters. I actually was seeing about the same as when I broke in the same model engine on the Simplex. Clutch plates sticking is a good go to alternative, but the only area I addressed was the jug, but the rocking in gear might just as well have freed a seized clutch.

The clutch side engine cover has to be dropped to service the second oil filter and that area didn't reveal any debris, no pan on this models so splitting the cases is the only way to get a look in the crankcase. I will do another oil change after I get it running for thirty minutes or so to check for signs of damage in the filters and oil.

The motor ran well on both of the two test start ups...once it started, took a bit of cranking the first time not so much on the second. I drained the oil again today & it looked fine as did the filters,so I refilled and got it stated once again and ran for a couple of minutes and it died, I tried to restart and no good then noticed there was no fuel in the clear line or the transparent filter. I worked with it awhile took the vented cap off the tank, and ran new line and new filter, petcock also functioned perfectly & had copious fuel flow to the carb, but attach it to the carb and all flow stopped. It's a new Japanese built Mikuni round slide, but may have set up with fuel as I don't recall draining it after the second test run.

I'll get to it tomorrow though suggestions are appreciated.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 22, 2017, 05:21:37 PM
stuck float needle maybe?  Give it a gentle tap?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 23, 2017, 05:49:08 AM
Maybe even a robust 'tap' . A couple , done with authority . Stuck needles happens a fair amount on the Honda in line fours and we suggest rapping the bowls with a screwdriver handle butt . Usually does the trick .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 23, 2017, 07:58:04 AM
I will do so, again, but this time with more enthusiasm...expecting a harmonious outcome. I really should have drained the carb as varnish can form quite quickly. If the float doesn't respond. I will partially disassemble and soak in carb cleaner for a couple of days. Full disassembly isn't a problem though I'd prefer having a rebuild kit on hand; if for no other reason to have fresh O rings for reassembly. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 23, 2017, 09:26:04 AM
That yellowish leftover from what they are selling us as gasoline can clog things nicely .

If you use carb cleaner , be sure to remove all rubber or anything resembling it before soaking the carb body . Carb cleaner eats rubber and such .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 23, 2017, 09:50:50 AM
Amen to that!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 23, 2017, 10:22:13 AM
I don't use commercial cleaners for that reason. I find a mixture of kerosine and Marvel Mystery oil works well if one is willing to wait a couple of days to see some results and doesn't interact with the elastic.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 23, 2017, 05:16:45 PM
My Mystery mix soaked the carb buggers away and I put about 45 minutes on the motor today in 3 sessions... starts pretty good and idles smooth but I'm geeting backfire from the exhaust now on quick applications of throttle...something new and I'll work on tomorrow. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 23, 2017, 07:28:25 PM
Exhaust is probably sucking air at the gasket or a valve stem seal. I'll check my work first at the manifold, copper gasket connection first and hope it's my bad crafting and or installation effort. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 24, 2017, 07:00:15 AM
Another possibility is a hole plugged on the venture tube, or a jet.  Could make it lean momentarily at WOT.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 24, 2017, 10:39:07 AM
Right Paul, lean mixture next, I'll look at carb air leaks and not enough back pressure on the wide open stub exhaust which leans a carb jetted for a factory muffler system. I'll read the plug first. The next step is jetting. Too rich will also afterfire, but given my setup that is doubtful. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 24, 2017, 10:59:58 AM
With a short, or less back-pressure exhaust, you'll usually get a popping or backfire upon deceleration in my experience.  Especially from higher rpm's.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 24, 2017, 04:30:46 PM
Paul thanks for the input. High rpm at this point about 3,500 and I'm not certain all the backfire is occurring upon deceleration, though that is the preponderant observation.  I experimented with added back pressure after I read the plug which showed I'd been running running lean. I inserted a temporary baffle and just clamped it in place and it really helped. I then pulled the air cleaner and the backfire increased but not to the level experienced before inserting the make shift baffle. I'm running lean for sure with the straight pipe, so  that's part of it.

I let things cool down and pulled the exhaust, the copper ring gasket showed the evidence of a leak where my shop built manifold had not uniformly compressed the gasket. It looks like I cut the steel flat ring a bit oversize and was pulling against the inside contour of the head just ahead of the exhaust port just a fraction before the gasket is engaged to form a 360 degree seal. I took great pains to ensure that the manifold components were welded true, but evidently misjudged the final fit up. A couple of minutes spent with the file on the offending steel ring and all looks looks good to go at the exhaust manifold.

One other item I need to spend some time on is making sure there are no leaks at the carb. Nothing obvious at this point, just need to make sure, because that also will lean a mixture

I'd like to report all runs smooth, but since the throttle cable decided to pull loose from the lead head in the throttle housing I'm kinda waiting on the new cable now, but have to think I'm closer to a solution than I was yesterday...progress. If I need to run richer jetting that's not bad, but I'd rather get all the buggers sorted first.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 24, 2017, 05:51:40 PM
Maybe I missed it , but , which carb are you running ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 24, 2017, 06:30:48 PM
Pete it's a Japanese built Mikuni...same as I used with the Simplex Gator/
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 25, 2017, 06:17:36 AM
Sounds like you have it all under control.  FYI, I've had pretty good luck making barrels from lead sinkers and silver solder for odd-ball cables in the past.  Takes a little finesse with a small hand file to finish but, never had one break afterward.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 25, 2017, 07:17:24 AM
I've used silver solder for reattaching cable ends with good results , too .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 25, 2017, 07:47:33 AM
Thanks guys I'd not thought about silver soldering the keeper barrel/ balls to cable ends...creative problem solvers!
I'd think the careful application of silver solder to new cables could be preventative as well? This is the second time this year on different throttle setups and once last year on a brake cable. Fortunate no harm done and close to home at that, but...  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 25, 2017, 02:47:41 PM
Maybe build your own cables ?
If you have to redo what you're buying  ...

Heck , you pretty much build everything else involved .

Pete . :)


Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 25, 2017, 04:21:13 PM
Making things is fun Pete. I finally found the photo I've had in mind that explains at a glance how the leaning wheel design looks in action. The side car looks like a kayak to me. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 25, 2017, 04:58:58 PM
" Making things is fun Pete.  "

I agree and it's specially so when those things actually work . ;)

Almost looks like that gal might be pushing that kayak . LOL

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on February 26, 2017, 07:43:29 AM
I had the idea of something similar to that using a U-joint from a cars driveshaft.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 26, 2017, 02:46:15 PM
Paul the repurposed U joint for frame to bike connection is quite feasible.

Pete that gal appears so at ease that she could well be working a kayak on a tranquil stretch of river. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2017, 05:37:22 AM
I thought I had the after fire problem solved but still experiencing some, though the short baffle I made and installed works amazingly well in quieting the short exhaust note. I still have a hard time believing it's so quiet. It actually quieter than the Simplex at idle. I've some new exhaust gaskets on order which I hope will seal the leak. I knew the used one wasn't going to be a long term solution as it was in pretty bad shape. The backfire is occurring under acceleration only.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 08, 2017, 07:41:18 AM
Rick C ,

If the new exhaust gaskets don't seal the leak , I have some exhaust manifold gasket material that I used to make a gasket for my '57 . It's fairly thick stuff and has sealed the manifold to cylinder nicely . That , where a stock gasket failed .
If you want to try cutting your own gasket , let me know and I can send you some material . I have way more than enough to last me ... Note that is not easy to cut/shape .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 09, 2017, 06:12:55 AM
Pete thanks for your input and offer. I will take you up on it if what I have planned is unsuccessful. I should have the new gaskets in hand by Saturday. They appear to be both thicker and larger in diameter. I ordered several, just in case. The leak is at the top of the gasket which makes sense when one thinks of assembly with the ring inserted first, it settles at the lowest point leaving only a narrow contact patch at the top. A larger diameter would be very good to offset this, as would a thin spacer inserted at the base of the gasket to help center while tightening. If the gaskets ordered are not substantially thicker I plan on double stacking the gaskets, which would probably "blow out" in short order but hold long enough to verify the leak as the main or only problem. Not having extra gaskets prevented me trying this earlier. Reuse of a damaged gasket was not a permanent fix, but did show a short improvement in the problem. At any rate I'll not adjust or change out any other components until I have a good seal at the exhaust. Chasing a problem with multiple solutions before eliminating an obvious one is a sure fire way to frustrate a happy outcome. One extra thing I noticed when checking for spark before initial startup was that the intensity and color seemed a bit weak. It was during the day so I plan on checking this out as well in more subdued lighting conditions after fixing the leak...original Chinese plug so an NGK replacement is in hand.

Again Pete I thank you for the very kind offer. I'll keep you informed.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 09, 2017, 07:39:30 AM


In case the NGK doesn't show much better than OEM , you might consider an iridium plug . In previous motors with weak spark , I've used iridium plugs . They have shown immediate and very noticeable  improvement .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 09, 2017, 11:13:09 AM
Pete that's another good suggestion and once I see clearly the quality of the spark with a fresh plug I'll be guided to do just that, but I want to first eliminate the coil, plug wire and ground as problematic areas. Lastly I have a new CDI as well that can be swapped. When I have a decent spark on a fresh standard plug then the Iridium will be frosting on the cake. They really are quite superior plugs and on my little 2 cycle engines I've noticed an immediate improvement in power and all around performance when switching to Iridium.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 10, 2017, 07:25:30 AM
Spring time here in Indian territory, fruit trees are in full bloom...really pretty and I'm cleaning and servicing my bikes...3 mountain bikes and 5 motorized bicycles along with motorcycles. I got to thinking about how varied the opportunities are to take to the road on two wheels. Though I ride daily year round, not on ice and snow or during pouring rain, I'm a full time cycle guy and seldom drive anywhere except to haul big stuff to and from. I realize at 70 years young this is kind of an oddity yet it's what I do. To me it's a reward and brings joy, building is important to me...but riding is the magic that makes it really worthwhile. This said my friends I hope that all of you are riding frequently and having the time of your life this Spring and year round.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 10, 2017, 08:06:43 AM
Not quite spring here, we are having about 6" of snow today!  In a few more years I am planning on retiring and moving to a warmer climate.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 10, 2017, 10:47:54 AM
Rick I'm serious about feeling bad for you guys this winter, as ours has been so mild while you've been just hammered by a series of weather events. One of my favorite areas in our beautiful country is upstate N.Y. For several years I had business which required that I travel several times a year to Ithaca, Cornell University and I loved the area and the good people of that region, but always feared being snowed in which I narrowly escaped twice waiting for flights out of Syracuse. I hated the few trips I took in Winter & could never live there year round, but adjusting to our tornado season in Oklahoma is horrible to adjust to for those relocating here (not that I'd think this is an area you would be considering). So plan well leading up to your retirement & locate wisely. Stay safe...Spring will come. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 10, 2017, 11:12:41 AM
Rick, I spent 4 months on OKC back in 1989.  I'm thinking the Lake Norman region of North Carolina for retirement.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 10, 2017, 12:37:06 PM
Charlotte area is extremely nice and that's a beautiful lake, big sucker too! We always liked to vacation in the area around Ashville and sent our kids to Summer camp for a month each year nearby, my son to Camp Rockmont and my daughter to the girls Camp Greystone nearby Ashville. They enjoyed it so much that it became a tradition each summer during their Jr. and Sr. High years. North Carolina is a beautiful choice for retirement, in my opinion, with wonderful outdoor opportunities and adventures even for old guys and their beautiful families. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 13, 2017, 07:36:12 AM
While cleaning bikes I decided to eliminate 2 bicycles and 2 motor bicycles, instead of building more storage...motorcycles, go carts and trucks are next. I know I'll just build more but I'll address that down the road. The Simplex and Harley will stay put.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 13, 2017, 09:39:28 AM
There are always rafters that could be used for hanging 'things' from . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 22, 2017, 07:17:09 AM
Pete the rafters and attic are about full already...building storage is probable, but some removal continues.

Iridium plug was added to to my Simplex CG 125, but haven't started it yet. I'll update after I start and ride a few times. One plug cost exactly the same as four regular N G K plugs, so it will be the last one I buy unless there is a remarkable difference in overall performance. It was N G K gaped at .033 which is dead in the middle of recommended factory spec.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 22, 2017, 08:13:52 AM
Rick C ,

IIRC , I had best performance from the iridium plugs after I narrowed the gap a bit from preset . I think I ended plug checks at about .028" and ran that for a number of years in my Honda .

BUT , every system is different , so ???

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 23, 2017, 11:26:02 AM
Pete the Iridium N G K did make a notable difference without changing factory gap setting better throttle response and starting both cold and hot. Started from cold well with the standard but better with the Iridium. Hot starts were not always easy before now it's just kick and go! I can now cold start without choke engaged and the plug reads perfect as it was a bit rich with the regular N G K. Four times the cost but well worth it for my Simplex Copper Gator. I've yet to install one in the Harley Peashooter.

Are you heading back North anytime soon?  The mosquito's are voracious down on the Gulf Coast and eat "Snowbirds" alive, lol. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 23, 2017, 11:52:51 AM
Another positive review on iridium plugs , which I was pretty sure would be the case . ;)

We're currently on the Mississippi gulf coast ( Long Beach ) until about the first week of April .
Then it'll be a meander Northward .
The little buggers are 'noticeable' here too . :(
I must have had two or three try to get me last night . Usually they don't bother with a sour old soul  like me . 

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 24, 2017, 06:16:54 AM
Pete glad to hear your on the move and hope the stay in Texas was pleasant. I always thought I'd retire aboard a boat while plying up and down on the Gulf coast with a couple of months over to the Bahamas, for variety, but I'm still land locked in Indian Territory and good with that. When I sold my company in Houston I had my Captain's license...six pack, and owned a 54 foot Oyster Bay sport fisherman aboard which I often ran the Mississippi coast line and intercoastal waterway. Of course I'd been a blue water navigator for more than two decades by then. I really enjoyed the lifestyle on the water during that four year period, but family business called me back to my roots and I really believe it was the best thing I've ever done moving back "home" though I envy your moving about at will and the experiences that you must encounter during your travels and over your stays...priceless!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 24, 2017, 06:50:55 AM
We do love the lifestyle , Rick .

About the only things that might make it better would be a Prevost , instead of our Monaco , and a  weather controller . :D
Oh , and a decent shop to mess around in . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 12, 2017, 07:52:33 AM
Still headed North Pete? I'm Spring cleaning fixing and changing thing on my rides, beautiful Spring here in Indian Territory. Mostly riding my 2 cycle bicycles...light and really fun transport. I did take the Simplex out yesterday and enjoyed the ride except my backside is sore...pretty tooled saddle is really hard, so I'm going back to my Rich Phillips memory foam 'gator hide one and save pretty for the shows! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 12, 2017, 07:57:55 AM
Some phone photos.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 12, 2017, 01:37:27 PM
Hi Rick ,

Yup . We're still on our meander . Currently in Corinth , Ms . Nice weather here , too . We're doing our best to avoid rain and such and so far , we've managed . We plan on reaching our Summer park on the 30th . Just in time for it's season's opening . ;)

That Indian does seem like a good pleasure cruiser . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 13, 2017, 07:20:59 AM
Pete take care on the way. What state will be honored with your Summer presence?

I do enjoy my moto bicycles, very light, fun and dependable after I rework the basic China girl engines with crank balance, high grade bearings, port and piston work, reed valve, head replacement, carb & CDI upgrades and replace every fastener with stainless steel,grade 8 Allen head (socket) bolts on all but the head bolts which are also grade 8 but employ hex head. Triples the base motor cost but well worth it. I'm looking for dependability, cool running and smooth running, not max power though power is double the base reading...about 4.5 hp now and with a 48 tooth rear sprocket they will climb any hills we have here without pedal assist. Great around town and will actually put along at 10 mph without complaint and 35 mph cruise in the country. Top speed don't know and don't care, not what I'm about now   though the Vee Nola tires could probably take it. 

Hope you get the Simplex up and running this Summer.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 14, 2017, 06:28:09 AM
Rick ,

The nature park we'll be hosting is in north central Illinois . About 85 miles SW of Chicago . Farm country for miles in any direction . Currently in Southern Illinois , where we'll while away about 3 weeks before returning to park duty .

What you do to those poor Chinese motors is similar to what gets done to the Simplex motors .

As for my Simplex , I have to be getting close . I've tried pretty much every possible combination of OEM and upgrade(s) . I'll have plenty to do on the bike this summer , as our time in the salt air of Rockport  really took it's toll . Rust , every where . If there was a nick , there is rust . The aluminum looks like it's covered in salt . Depressing . :(

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 14, 2017, 12:35:50 PM
Beautiful farm land for sure and the climate is waaay less corrosive and the insects not so blood thirsty.

Yes the base China kit bike motors are not impressive coming off the boat, but make a pretty dependable foundation for upgrading as I described before or just basic bolt, bearings, balance and general cleanup coupled with the large aluminum head for cooling and some shop time. Less than $200. total for base engine and upgrade parts including a Dellorto clone carb.
My most used bike is pretty much setup like just described and I'll soon have 500 hours on the current engine or about 10,000 miles at 20 mph. One new spark plug is all I've replaced over it's service. When needed a major motor rebuild will be about $60. bucks including rings, piston, jug, bearings, spark plug and new gasket set. CDI, plug, coil set are about$15. Clutch rebuild under $10. Granted I'm easy on them and not only know the proper way to ride and service a 2 stroke, but I actual do it! I've twisted the more highly modified version to 11,00 rpm but only to see if it could...those who ride wide open throttle all the time or ignore the basics of cooling and lubrication of 2 strokes won't get much life out of these little motors, but I do. 125 to 150 mpg fuel economy and they really do pay for themselves around town and for leisurely country cruises.
Of course you're correct about the corrosive nature of salt air but man I do miss being near the water. Drive with care and enjoy.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 24, 2017, 03:58:45 AM
I've enjoyed riding the Simplex this Spring especially since I reinstalled the alligator saddle, it's worlds more comfortable than the highlu tooled one, pretty is as pretty does.

I'm riding a lot, splitting time between 4 bikes, all of which I'm really enjoying. I've about sorted them all out now, with the Harley Peashooter just beginning the breakin mileage. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 24, 2017, 04:40:37 AM
I'm jealous , Rick .

I'll be waiting another week or so , until we settle into our Summer camp , before I get to ride again . Lately , rain and wind here in Southern Illinois , with a decent day or two between . Hopefully , the weather will start producing more nice days than not .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 25, 2017, 07:18:39 AM
Pete plenty of nice days to come, drive safe and enjoy the journey. Still very nice weather here some rain but plenty of sunshine in between and mostly 60's during the heat of the day. I'm headed out for a morning ride a bit late for me but not punching a clock, so who cares? Enjoy now 'cause busy days from last of May through August.

I intended to show the Simplex and Harley at an area car show last weekend but I backed out due to high wind forecasts for the afternoon and they were... gusts to 50 mph after lunch, not uncommon here at anytime but especially during the Spring. I'll probably wait till the Fall to show the bikes, not really into showing anyway but always enjoy the guys and gals who are enthusiasts while paying a bit forward.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 25, 2017, 07:30:06 AM
Showing ?? Ha . It seems we can't stop without someone asking about the Simplex . Even though it's turned into a pile of rust after Rockport's salt air .
It's are a great conversation starter .

Enjoy your ride , Rick .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on April 25, 2017, 07:45:02 AM
I can relate PD.  Often times I will just ride my Simplex to the local  grocery store to grab something and then when I come back out, there will be a few people crowding around my bike "checking it out" and start asking me all sorts of questions.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on April 25, 2017, 07:47:34 AM
I like to bring my bikes to the Friday Night cruise at the Beach a few time during the season. I have never met anyone local that had ever seen a Simplex in person before laying eyes on my bikes. I do get many people telling me they saw one on American Pickers though.  I get the impression not many bikes were sold in the north east.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on April 25, 2017, 08:44:22 AM
I was told there was a dealer in Minnesota at one time.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 25, 2017, 11:30:20 AM
I don't know about the N.E. or Minnesota but they sold a butte load of of both the Simplex Servi-cycles and the Western Auto Supply Co. private label Simplex "Wizards" (not to be confused with the bicycle conversion 4 stroke "Whizzer's", in Oklahoma and the fly boys had them, Simplex's, on Air Force bases around here as well...guys that grew up in Indian Territory during the fifties and sixties, "Cushman" era, sure remember them and are eager to share their stories as well. You guys are right; the best "shows" by far consist of your daily rides & as most of you are riding restored bikes old timers should recall them from their youth if they were marketed in your areas. They identify my faux Simplex by the shape of the frame only, since every part on the bike is non Simplex (including the frame) the single exception being the head tube.

As far as showing off; people like the little fellows even if they aren't sure what they are!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 02, 2017, 06:26:51 AM
I'm making some progress on the design I'll be going with on the "Simplex" sidecar (which never was) to attach to my faux Simplex Copper Gator, which is but really isn't. I decided to go with a small, 6 ft. long, low and narrow body based on a Kayak shell...quite steam lined. Since the Simplex is so low I want the car and frame even lower to allow easy viewing of the bike from the car side. Most side car designs (current and classic) completely hide the bike from view; this one won't.

Quick mounting and detachment of car to bike is important to me, as I enjoy riding solo on the Gator & won't give that up.

I also will construct a leaning wheel, articulated frame which allows the rider to lean into curves and corners rather than "drive" around like an auto. I'd like to actually enjoy riding the rig. The car wheel will be equipped with a brake, I plan on using a moped hub and 14" - 16" wheel...to better match up with the low & small car body.

Articulation at the bike frame, simple hinge design, with vertical position side car lock & car brake foot pedal on the car frame. Car wheel articulation controlled by either chain & sprocket or a simple tie rod arrangement.

Broad strokes for now but it's a direction to begin with. Already getting busy with seasonal work load so probably won't get much done at a time, but no worries slow is sure and I sure am.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 27, 2017, 06:41:51 AM
Veterans thanks for your service!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 01, 2017, 02:09:50 PM
I've been researching sidecar articles, posts, photos etc. in an attempt to learn all I can about these rather strange accessories and have yet to see one attached to or designed for the Simplex which I find rather curious since sidecars have been manufactured or custom built for all manner of two wheel transport including bicycles and scooters foreign and domestic. If any of you guys know of, have links to or information about a Simplex/sidecar combination; I would be grateful if you would make me aware of or link me to sources I can learn from. Thanks, Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on June 01, 2017, 02:36:29 PM
Here ya go , Rick :

https://www.google.com/#q=simplex+sidecars

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 02, 2017, 06:01:01 AM
Thanks Pete quite a few photos of the Simplex coupled to sidecars on that site.

Did Simplex make a sidecar rig? Did Simplex dealers ever offer after market sidecar rigs as an option?  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on June 02, 2017, 08:16:19 AM
Unless someone pulls proof out of the woodwork , I'm going to say no to both of those questions , Rick .

It wouldn't be much of a surprise if Simplex at least toyed with the idea or if a dealer or two actually did offer something aftermarket . Just nothing that I recall off the top .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 27, 2017, 06:12:38 AM
If any of you guys going to Portland spot a Simplex sidecar rig would you please take some closeup photos of the car to bike frame attachment points and bracing? I would really appreciate it. Most photos are taken from the car side which, though lovely,  blocks all the connection design details. Thanks Rick C
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on June 27, 2017, 07:30:31 AM
If any of you guys going to Portland spot a Simplex sidecar rig would you please take some closeup photos of the car to bike frame attachment points and bracing? I would really appreciate it. Most photos are taken from the car side which, though lovely,  blocks all the connection design details. Thanks Rick C


Will do!  I wouldn't hold my breath though, as I have never seen one there, that I can recall.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on June 27, 2017, 10:48:56 AM
Having made 2 different sidecars and mounts (1 small one for DT100 and a full size one for an old iron head Sportster I wish I still had pics of)  I would guess your going to need to attach to the motor mount plate being the strongest part of these bikes frame and then, probably another point to the frame (with maybe some strengthening) for extra rigidity and safety, including a way to adjust for toe-in and tracking.  Unless you plan on doing that on the cars sub-frame/suspension.  
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 30, 2017, 07:40:37 AM
Yes all the adjustment features will all be on the car frame, which I'm hoping will make re mounting the car less of a chore setup wise.

As to the attachment points I agree about the motor mount being the strongest point both on the stock frame and my "fake" Simplex frame. If you recall I replaced 90% of the tubing with heavy wall DOM steel & 3/16"  thick steel plate for mounting the pedal bracket and engine & the all steel fuel tank is welded into the upper tubes as well...the unitized engine also acts as a frame stress member, tying the frame tubes together at 5 points. Balance points are actually my real concern at the moment, along with kick start lever utilization.

Also of concern is the piano hinge connection between bike and car frames and any tendency towards sagging at this hinged connection during operation. Locating the tie rod connection from the leaning wheel to the bike frame has to be right.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on June 30, 2017, 11:20:14 AM
You'll need to set these adjustments with a load of the approx. weight in the sidecar.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 01, 2017, 07:34:14 AM
Thanks for that input and as I get closer to the point of having a good estimate of weight I'll get back to you with questions about settings etc. How does one calculate the added weight of an adult passenger and that of a empty rig? Handling has to be quite different. How does one set up for the huge day to day variance between loaded and empty?

I'm studying and thinking, but input from those who have experienced day to day life riding a sidecar rig is very welcome.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 11, 2017, 05:16:52 AM
Since I'm still stalled on the sidecar project I've been building another motor bicycle based on a Schwinn style straight bar frame used over the years on many models, but this one is to be badged as an "Excelsior X Autolite", Schwinn. Just something to fiddle with.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on July 11, 2017, 06:51:39 AM
I've seen these 20"  fat tire bikes with the little Grubee clone engines.  I've even torn up a few of those engines in the past.  They sound like gas engine blenders. LOL
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 11, 2017, 11:32:09 AM
The fat bikes are really popular at this time. I built one with 3" x 24" tires a few years back and very much enjoyed it with the little 2 stroke motor, but I eventually went back to 2.195" x 26" tires that are easier to pedal without the help of the motor. 3" tires barely qualify anymore as "fat" most are 4" & up now.

The little inexpensive Chinese kit motors are fun and small at 50 cc or 66 cc putting out 2 hp or so...just about commercial weed eater size and power. Many manufacturers build & market these & quality varies...so some have had bad experiences others good. Also many people have zero knowledge about the care and operation of small, air cooled 2 strokes leading to much unhappiness.

I spend quite a bit of my money and time to modify my engines to both enhance performance and extend motor life; as a result I have great fun and few problems riding them...the Schwinn is my third China girl I've built in the last three years, one of which has over 500 hours of ridng time on the original plug and no engine problems. My only motorcycle to have a better service record in the first 500 hours is a Honda Gullwing. I plan to pull the head and de carbonize the 500 hour motor this Summer, but don't expect to find much buildup as it runs great. 45 mph speed is available with this modified engine on the flats, though 20 mph is more the norm. I keep a good muffler on all my 2 cycle weed wacker/model airplane motored bicycles so I don't have to hear the little ring dings & laugh all the way to the bank with 125 mpg fuel mileage in town and thumbs up by all I meet! Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on July 11, 2017, 07:39:41 PM
Rick ,

I know I've read what you do to your China motors . I thought I bookmarked that post , but I guess I was dreaming , because I can't find it .
Could you please post a link to that post ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 12, 2017, 06:23:37 AM
Pete I'll do you one better and take a few photos of the internal mods to the jug, case and piston of a reed valve setup with a third transfer port and piston port window.... as compared to a milder engine with just the basic skirted and ramped piston, with enlarged and matched ports and transfer ports slightly enlarged and smoothed.

I've also found a couple of motor sources that feature balanced cranks and use grade 8 head bolts, so I don't bother with doing this myself anymore. Also the decks are accurately machined so that step is no longer necessary. I also use copper head gasket. Buying a good base motor is the most important step in the whole process as some of the kits are pure crap to build on. I'm not about touting vendors, but I can PM the ones I buy from cost about $125. to $150. short block with basic mods so fifty or sixty dollars more than unknown vendor block & worth it to me.

I use the SHA Dellorto slide carb and 6 cc aluminum aftermarket heads, bigger the better for cooling more than for power, though power is increased, NGK plug & solid copper wire, after market ignition on the performance motors that retard advance at high rpm (opposite of 4 stroke theory) depending on the exhaust used the highly modified engines come on pipe at 8,000 to 9,500 rpm with 12,000 to 13,000 topped. No matter how well these motors are built they won't live long operating at plus 10,500 rpm, but fun to run up for a short burst.

I run a 48 tooth final sprocket and 26" tire so I'm really geared low on the bike I spoke of in the previous post and it pulls well from dead stops and pulls long hills well without overheating, super dependable. I really like these little motors and don't usually build out for max power, but it's pretty easy to double stock power with minor mods and triple with more mods and much tuning. I don't have a dyno and don't necessarily believe vendor claims, but know it takes several extra hp to get past the true stock mph limits on a kit bike.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on July 12, 2017, 07:25:47 AM
Rick ,

I'm looking forward to your 'tutorial' . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bob53 on July 13, 2017, 06:01:07 AM
Rick, PM me with the vendors and mods. I'm going to try my hand at a china girl on a vintage bike. From the hours you've clocked on yours it sounds like you definitely have the bugs worked out. I'm still going to try and come and visit when the summer cools down and slows down. We're just 2 hours from you. Bob
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on July 13, 2017, 06:57:36 AM
Whatever bike you decide on, make sure the bikes strong enough to handle the vibration and stress.  I had to solder the lugs on my old Western Flyer and even then it flexed at higher speeds.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Eric on July 13, 2017, 01:28:20 PM
 Hi  Just looking at the picture,why so many spokes in the front? wheel compared to the rear.   eric
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 14, 2017, 04:05:43 AM
Great looking Flyer! You discovered the greatest problem motorizing a vintage bike frame or an inexpensive modern frame from a box store...strength, especially if the bike is to be used a lot and the rider is a full grown adult (supersized) on rough roads at higher speeds etc. I either build my own frame, like my Simplex, from the best materials and properly re enforced or carefully select a new classic frame design to build around. I often add gussets etc. to these as well. Not all frames are good candidates just because a motor will fit, but as you show in your Flyer build a very nice build can result with ingenuity and work. There are old bike frames that can withstand the transition to motor assist safely, but many require a bit of enforcement.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 14, 2017, 04:16:13 AM
Rick, PM me with the vendors and mods. I'm going to try my hand at a china girl on a vintage bike. From the hours you've clocked on yours it sounds like you definitely have the bugs worked out. I'm still going to try and come and visit when the summer cools down and slows down. We're just 2 hours from you. Bob
Will do Bob, have a safe trip to Portland. It would be a pleasure to have you drop by any time. We have an excellent outdoor Fall festival and car show in October that is very beautiful and draws several thousand visitors each year. Lots of vendors and food and the setting is a large public park very pretty & restful setting. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on July 14, 2017, 07:31:56 AM
Why so many spokes?  LOL, Long story short, they were leftover from another job and, they looked kinda cool and were really strong.  Speaking of the little china motors and modifications, what have you done about the weak and really noisy dry clutches on them?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 14, 2017, 12:43:02 PM
Now that's a great question. I've tried a bit of  everything to quite things down in the clutch area and no real solution, though the heavy aluminum billet cover helped some. I've had great life from the clutch's themselves & have yet to change the little pads on any of the motors, this amazes me cause I pull from dead stops and usually don't pedal assist using the 48 tooth rear sprocket but with the 44 tooth I do usually help with the pedals a little. I'm a buck 75 in weight & big guys probably can't get away with unassisted dead stops without a lot of clutch slip and I'm positive the little dry clutch can't take much of that kind of abuse.

Wish I had some magic trick for you but the clutch is really small & needs some babying in order to survive. Good news is pad sets are less than ten bucks and are quick to change out.  Rick C.

One of the drive train mods I always make is to throw the rag joint sprocket set away and use the Manic type sprocket hub adapter setup. Of course it adds $70. to $100. to the cost but saves the spokes and warped wheel the rag joint will eventually cause.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on July 16, 2017, 05:51:10 AM
Hey Rick C (NDIAN22)  I forgot to mention a suspension system I did on a sidecar you could consider.  I modeled it off of the plunger type rear  suspension system I had on an old chopper I built long ago.  It was simple and had approx. 4" of travel.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 17, 2017, 04:15:15 AM
Very nice, simple design & looks great as well on the cycle frame. I'd think 4 " of overall travel sufficient for a car suspension as well. I like the compact size & it's just quirky, vintage look is appealing too. Thanks for sharing.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 28, 2017, 05:12:26 AM
Just a few photos of my Schwinn Excelsior Autocycle project I've been working on a little this Summer, not yet completed but I'm riding her while completion is underway. I'm a believer in prolonged break in routine especially on inexpensive motors that are routinely clearanced rather tight... burnished in place. I ride 10 or 15 min. at slower rpm while continuously the speed, almost zero idle time. I allow the engine to cool to the touch before repeating. This ride routine is practiced over twenty or so rides, until the motor starts to show some life as it frees up. Initial startup can be taxing even though pre-lubing the cylinder bore and manually turning the motor over a couple of dozen times helps.

I also find some of the clutch assemblies are frozen in place during the shipping & storage phase which makes one fear a locked up motor...it has always been the clutch in my experience. Just another basic example of 2 stroke design and quite simple to work on or with. I've had quite good fortune with them, but they still have their quirks.  Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on July 28, 2017, 05:50:55 AM
Looking nice , Rick .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 03, 2017, 12:52:14 PM
Thanks Pete got the rear fender mounted, Excelsior/Schwinn brass head badge And a small cylinder leather tool bag mounted and just waiting on the Schwinn feather chain guard and the Schwinn and Excelsior decals to come in so I can finish. I've put quite a few hours in riding and breaking in, really with only a couple of minor problems noted and hopefully corrected. I'll be fabricating an "oil tank" of steel and copper to mount in front of the rear wheel that will act as a lower forward fender brace and fill in the air gap between the seat tube and rear wheel. Getting very close to completion and it's turned out to be a very pleasant bike to ride though to those who require an upright riding stance it looks uncomfortable. It suits me just fine and is quite sporty to ride.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 14, 2017, 05:50:15 AM
Pete & Bob 53 I have not forgotten your interest in the small Chinese bicycle 2 strokes, kit type motors. I've been waiting to relay the most up to date information as well as post some current photos which might prove instructive. I'm back on it and am taking photos as I go.

Again I realize this is a Simplex forum & I don't want to offend any of the members by my sharing of off topic material...please let me know if for any reason my posting offends, for any reason. I really want this forum to thrive & I see some diversity of building and riding experience as a possible route to increased visitor traffic and increased membership. Just a suggestion and not intended in any way as a criticism of primary topic emphasis or to forums very important dedication to documenting, collecting and refurbishing of all things Simplex. I appreciate all you guys. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bob53 on August 14, 2017, 07:26:45 AM
Thanks Rick, I met a guy here in town the other day that also does some of these mods to the china girl engines. He says it make all the difference in the world to these engines. By a bicycle speedometer he claims 50 plus mph. More than I want to do on a bicycle. But the power on hand would be nice. Bob
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 14, 2017, 07:50:06 AM
I'm not so sure that this is too far off topic , Rick .

After all , with the modifications you suggest , the 'little' Chinese motors might just be enough to power a Simplex . Granted 'some' extra gearing may be required , but ...

And , there's the fact that a lot of what are left of Simplex bikes have been customized/modernized/re-powered with what ever happened to be available .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 14, 2017, 03:55:25 PM
Thanks for the input guys it is appreciated. I had some deliveries today that I'll share with a bit of explanation. I'm currently working on three of these little motors and not all will be built out alike. Two are short stroke and the other (in the Schwinn has a longer stroke) a couple have 40 mm intake stud spacing the other has 32 mm. Other than that heads are all 8mm studs. One piston fits all, same with the head...rod is not common to all.

I'm not going to make a big deal of which engine gets what because except for the particulars mentioned the mods are similar in nature.

The photos show a piston with a one inch hole centered exactly midway between the bottom of the skirt and the bottom ring. This is the piston "window" for the reed valve setup on the intake side. It looks huge in the photo & is about 3/16" in diameter larger than what I run on my Skyhawk bike. I bought this to compare the two in performance and also the bronze bushing that is oil impregnated...what you see are not empty holes. I'm testing because the roller wrist pin bearing has been a problem for many & when it goes it takes the engine with it.

The Dellorto slide carb is a clone, but a good one...each bike I build gets one. The expansion chamber is also a test & will be tried on two different motors the lightly modified Schwinn setup and the reed valve, which has a bunch of work and miles on my Grubee Skyhawk. The expansion chamber pipe has a major bit of blockage at the flange which will be dealt with.

The   cylinder shows the shape and polish of the intake porting which is matched to the intake or reed valve body & gaskets to improve flow. The exhaust side is not shown but is also ported and contoured to flow. I don't think it necessary to mirror polish either one, but have and seen little or no performance value. A nice finish with three hundred grit is about right.

I'm operating at 1500 feet so a 55 or 60 jet is about right on a modified engine. That is quite capable of doing around 50 mph Bob, but when I add those mods to a reed valve setup with a piston window only a 60 or 65 is used. Adding a third transfer port to the reed valve and piston window setup requires 65 to 75 jet.

I'll go into more details as I do the work. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 15, 2017, 04:07:20 AM
Pete the clutch in the China girl engine is the weak point. I run a 48 t rear sprocket in my Grubee and it pulls pretty good from dead stop & still run over 40 mph. Going to a 56 t or 58 t with stock primary sprocket and quality chain might just pull the weight of the Simplex and a not huge rider to 35 mph or so. The motor would have to be built up to around 5 hp or more, which is what I would call a mildly modified engine that could survive well if properly built,  ridden and maintained.

Couple of points I neglected to flesh out the piston "window" is 1" in diameter. The wrist pin bushing shown is graphite filled (the black dots) oil lite bronze & is promoted as capable of running oil free without binding...I hope not to test this particular feature.

I cleaned up the exhaust flange yesterday and mounted it on the Schwinn & geez was it loud, ran better, but was dirt bike loud. I'm fabbing a muffler for it and will try it out next on my Grubee Sky Hawk to see where the engine comes on pipe, the Grubee will probably end up as the expansion chambers home, since it's modified engine should benefit most from the pipe at mid range rpm. I'm hoping it will really come up on pipe at a little over 6,000. Even with extensive modifications getting over the "bump" (coming up on cam for a 4 stroke) with these little China 66 cc engines has been tough using the short mufflers, once on the pipe they smooth & scream. This expansion pipe looks to be designed for low to high mid range performance & will probably not improve the top any at all, which is o k with me since that's not where I ride.   Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 15, 2017, 05:29:57 AM
How much weight difference between a stock Simplex roller and your 'typical' bicycle roller ?

Hopefully , that pipe adds enough 'better' to make it worthwhile . I knew it would be a loud one .  It looks to be not much more than a straight pipe with the tail section being as big as the inlet . I'd have thought the tail would / should be half or less than what it is . But , I'm not a pipe designer , so ...  Still , it looks nice and it's shiny . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 15, 2017, 02:50:07 PM
Pete my aluminum Grubee tank in frame bike is about 70 lbs. wet. I'm about 170 to 180, but  I've read posts of real heavy weights loving the authentic Grubee Skyhawk frame and the China girl engine. I'd think the Simplex to be around 150 lbs. ? The GT-5 engine is about 25 lbs. so there is that to consider opposed to the weight of the Servi motor and drive that would be eliminated. If I had a decent frame, fenders & forks, not even a roller, I'd have to consider building a light weight Servi-cycle, as a lark for something to do. I really think I could keep it at around 100 lbs. & that's not too bad if rider weight is under under 250 lbs. Given a choice of power and drive train to build around on a really nice complete roller I'd advise sticking with the small Honda or clone 4 cycle power plant with a 3D manual clutch & electric start, but that's just me being me on two completely different build speculations. I'm not really considering doing either, but then I didn't expect to build the Copper Gator either, lol. 

I swapped the Dellorto carb onto the Schwinn X-celsior this morning and it made a difference, both with the expansion chamber and without. I then installed the stock head with a .4mm copper gasket in place of the .8 mm stock gasket & it also was a noticeable improvement. I then replaced the expansion chamber with a stock muffler & I was so pleased wit the quiet that the expansion is history for the X bike. The gains I made with the carb and higher compression gained with the thin head gasket will be fine. The expansion chamber will be put to test on the Grubee, but with a muffler. You can't possibly believe how loud that little 66 cc motor is when on the pipe. The Gt-5 engine is modified enough to actually perform at the rpm's the pipe was designed for...if the added silencer kills the power at least it will be a quiet death.

Pete you are right in observing length as a factor in 2 stroke pipe design. Ultra short small header quickly going to an oversize chamber, dumping into a relatively short & small diameter outlet...should lead to a high output at elevated rpm, narrow power curve. The pipe I have is really not that, broader power band developed in the low to upper mid range & then going relatively flat on top.    Rick C     
   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 15, 2017, 06:43:10 PM
The factory brochures state Simplex bikes weigh 135 pounds . Subtracting the motor and such , the weights might be kinda close .

Agreed , I think one of the smaller Japanese brand motors might fit nicely in a Simplex frame . I'm sure there would be a hot wrench involved for a decent fit and look .
Seems I recall someone did or at least tried that a while back . Might have been you .

.4 mm = .0157" . That's getting thin . 
I ran some head gaskets I cut out of heavy duty aluminum foil on my '72 Kawasaki H1B back in the early 70s , when I was drag racing . They were very thin . ;)

Pete  . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 16, 2017, 05:31:01 AM
Pete the .4 mm appears to almost be "foil" & I was super cautious while slipping it over the studs. Side by side the new gasket appeared to be 1/4th the thickness of the original, not half. I'll be watching for any elevated temps while riding, but don't think I'll notice much if any change, the reason being that the piston at TDC isn't. This reduces compression and thus heat. I'd guess this engine now sets at about the same power as a well setup and carefully manufactured stock motor...getting one of those happens, luck of the draw, even from the best manfacturer & dealer/distributor. I like the California compliant kit motors that require light assembly as it saves time tearing down a motor for inspection and really is required for cleanup of transfer ports on both cylinder and case. I've also flushed out metal debris from machining operations as well. There is commonly some casting " flash" & constriction, rough edges and poor matching at the transfers as well as at intake & exhaust ports. Cylinder base gaskets are often too thick to build good compression, my engine base gasket falls into this category and will be replaced with a thinner one. Stock heads typically need some attention, I had 4 unused stock heads on the shelf and 3 of them were not flat requiring a surfacing cut for truing (shaved head which also increses compression). Of the four 3 also had a large casting lump at the edge of the spark plug, creating a hot spot, at the least, in the chamber which is a rough finish at best and all cc'd significantly different volume. Pete it's easy to find ways to build power in these little motors unfortunately. Attention to detail brings them to life. I've used quality CNC heads on my last 7 China girl motors for these reasons plus additional engine cooling and cool look as well. Using a stock head on the Schwinn X-celsior has reminded me of what I learned years ago when stock was what you got, deal with it. Jury is still out; I may switch to an aftermarket head on the Schwinn at some point & have a spare on order.

Even when building an engine with a perfect head, flat and well finished with a consistent combustion chamber volume the cylinder to head fit needs to be near perfect & both top and head gaskets selected that allow a good "squish"  that brings the piston to TDC while completely filling the cylinder without coming in contact with head or plug.

Note that port timing will be altered by either increasing or decreasing the cylinder base gasket thickness. I've experienced no port timing problems going with thinner gaskets only improvement. When building a highly modified China girl I prefer to begin with the thinner base gasket, if piston position at TDC is too low in the cylinder after all truing cuts are completed on jug and head. Shaving the head for a compression increase is my least favorite power builder & my last resort.

Though reed valve case induction is now quite common on the China girl & getting more inexpensive to accomplish with a kit the piston reed port setup is still an excellent choice for most builders. Hard core racers will probably gravitate to case reed induction for max power, but most builders seem to go piston port with the reed for the next power stage level in an easy to tune and live with street engine that has really good performance.

The piston port reed valve (I use the RSE valve with a Dellorto clone carb) used with a piston "window" is necessary to see a nice performance increase with a reed valve. Just bolting on a reed valve will not help a non modified, for reed valve,motor. I tried that on a highly modifed engine (non reed valve mods) & lost speed, with no noticeable improvement at any point in the power range. A piston window is necessary to feel a performance improvement. The piston window also helps cool the motor with the direct straight shot of cool fuel to the interior of the piston and wrist pin. More lubrication at the wrist is a very good thing as is any cooling. Aids in engine life and catastrophic seizure or bearing failure.

Cutting a third transfer port in the cylinder on the intake side really maximizes the use of the reed valve for top to bottom performance improvement and added in combination with previous modifications to head and cylinder, plus the piston window turns the CG engine into a very sporting power plant for light weight bikes. I like performance available on demand, but without drama. I don't want to spend my time tuning. I prefer riding and fabricating in that order, so if it's not dependable or if it's labor intensive I have no use for it. I have built one engine for max power and it was powerful but was all of the above as well & has set on the shelf for several years for a reason. I was a real P.I.T.A. much more trouble than it's worth. Some of the race builders won't sell outside the racing fraternity I'm told because they know it will come back to haunt them. I'm not a vendor nor do I sell what I build, for that reason coupled with the liability issues. I did sell a motor recently to a motorcycle service tech who can flat build tune and ride 'cause I wanted to do him a solid for aiding this old guy from time to time. He refused to accept it for free...great young man.

Just info and observations specific to the Chinese type kit bike variety 2 strokes. Just having fun.  Rick C.

           
   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 16, 2017, 07:01:16 AM
Not necessarily specific to China girl kits , Rick .

As I red the above , I was saying "yup ... yup ... that's right ... yup ... I've done that , too" . Only I was working on everything but a Chinese motor . Maybe some of the small yard tool motors were done in China , but , those usually didn't need or even allow much modification .
Although , I've never cut an extra transfer port . Opened and cleaned some , but ...

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 16, 2017, 02:24:02 PM
Yup pretty basic 2 stroke practice, but the lack of quality control in the China kits is the specificity I was referring to. You can't actually expect it was accurately QC'd at the factory & the specifics I mentioned are more to be expected than not. Add to this damage from shipping. I end up checking every fastener before the engine leaves the workbench, and at least eyeballing all parts, check & verify. Most will run right out of the box, but I  still verify. The photos attached show the contrast of quality, the CNC aluminum head is about $60. A complete engine can be purchased delivered for about $70. (short block) or a Franklin with muffler, carb, CDI & muffler.

  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 16, 2017, 03:45:40 PM
Gee , is there a difference in those heads ? LOL

Amazing what 60 bucks will buy . ;)

Looks like maybe the Chinese missed the QC part when they copied the Japanese .

I recall when I first started looking at scooters , I was strongly advised to stick with Japanese makes and leave the Chinese alone . That  was many years ago . Looks like things haven't changed much .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 16, 2017, 05:54:31 PM
They haven't yet they have Pete. The small Honda motorcycle clone motors, of which I own 3 are excellent in every respect but cost a bit more than these little industrial size weed wacker power plants. I'm amazed at how much fun and enjoyment I've gotten building and riding bikes powered by these tiny, simple 2 stroke power plants, over the last 6 or 7 years enthusiasts have found  ways to make them work well & that's pretty impressive to me.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 16, 2017, 07:10:48 PM
Where there's a will ... ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bob53 on August 17, 2017, 06:48:18 AM
Rick, which vendor do you use for the nice aftermarket head. It sure looks nice. Bob
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 17, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
Bob that's a Bicycle Motor Works head. I've used them on multiple bikes & it's my favorite, though the Fred head and Dax's RT are also great I like the retro style of the BMW head & it's well machined & made in Pa. which makes it about the only made in U.S.A part on most of my bikes...except those I make.

I installed the head on the X-celsior Schwinn this morning & it's now on there permanently. I rode about 20 minutes this a.m. & the performance is better with the new head as well. Without internal mods and an expansion chamber pipe it's performance is not going to ever be in the 40 mph class, but should cruise at 30 no problem.

Speaking of internal mods the new RSE reed valve cylinder is ready to assemble along with the window port piston (another BMW product) the "widow in the piston is 1" diameter, the intake port width is 15/16" & about as wide as is possible without cutting into the threaded stud mounting hole so I'm unsure what effect a full 1" window is supposed to make. I now recall that's the reason I've milled 7/8" widows in my previous reed valve jugs. I bought the piston to test so I'll just test it.   

The two factory transfer ports are enlarged and shaped in both the cylinder and case,as well as matched so the base gasket or gaskets also require trimming to match these ports.

I'll also run a Dellorto clone carb on this reed modified motor and the BMW head, but may have to go to a larger carb setup  later.  RickC
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 18, 2017, 04:38:39 AM
Expansion pipe with muffler conversion, total length only about 3" longer than the before adding the "can". I will mount this on the Schwinn today.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 18, 2017, 05:34:28 AM
Rick ,

What is the hex at the back of the can ? Is that a cleanout or ???

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 18, 2017, 10:48:38 AM
I've not removed it but could be. Definitely holds the end cap in place.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 18, 2017, 10:58:16 AM
It looks fairly decent . I don't know why they couldn't have built it to follow 'your' frame better . ;)

Does the muffler do much for your hearing ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 18, 2017, 02:03:01 PM
One of the problems of using generic designs to gain a little performance Pete. This expansion pipe design is quite tame in appearance compared to the looping big bulge snake pipes 2 stroke used on many motorcycles...including bicycles. I prefer the short stub for appearance...great performance will dictate if this pipe stays mounted or not.

The muffler completely eliminated the horrible ring ding & roar. I can't begin to describe how bad it was, both deafening & obnoxious to the extreme.  Improved throttle response and  broader power band is evident, but I need some riding time to really decide if it's the pipe or mostly  the other minor changes that are the source of improvement, but it is noticeably improved over the last few days. The final test is when and how pronounced the performance gain, I hope, when it hits on pipe. Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 20, 2017, 05:38:06 AM
The RSE reed valve motor design (Australian company) developed for the China girl motor. It''s now widely copied. Works well with piston window and or 3rd. transfer port mods. It is often sold as a bolt on power item, but though and unmodified engine will run ok with it mounted, it's just for looks & not for performance increase. Shown with window port piston and modified 3rd. port cylinder.

Reed modified engines require at least up jet or larger carbs tuned to the motor and exhaust. They really breathe & fuel consumption increases dramatically. I'm not a huge fan of really high compression on these engines for the sake of longevity at the least, but small increases are usually of great benefit, especially when coupled with major power mods. Several engine builders have shared that performance is actually degraded with increased compression past a certain modest level.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 20, 2017, 06:16:07 AM
Rick ,

Like everything else in life , there's a balance to be kept . It's just finding the right 'weights' to make that balance happen . ;)

Pete .
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on August 20, 2017, 03:02:27 PM
Rick, are the castings as rough in real life as they look in the pictures? I remember sand casting in High School, and they didn't look that bad.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 21, 2017, 04:21:59 AM
Some worse than others, Rick. I'd say the cylinders posted here are quite representative of the average. Head & case are ok, cylinders are just rough. Many, including myself have filed the fins  painted and at times refiled the fin edges. Many hrs. of work. The cylinders remind me of the old lawn mower castings of the 1950's. Replacement cylinders are available delivered for about $25. in a couple of days...inexpensive for sure. I'd sure like to see a 100 cc 2 cycle China girl V twin hit the market for a couple hundred bucks!   

Better or worse in photos? I suppose about the same. I still dress up the engine casings  a bit & modify the internals, but now leave the castings pretty much as is. I've had many conversations with and over heard many comments at shows about the bikes I've built & can't recall any negativity about the engines appearance other than questions of how old they are and where do you find the "old" engines and new head. I suppose I should "age" the head to better match the "old"  motor, like I did with the Honda 125 cc clone in my Harley Peashooter, now that one stumps many bike guys in person.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 22, 2017, 04:36:45 PM
GT-5 38 mm stroke motor is assembled and installed in my Grubee Sky hawk frame. I wanted to check the engine out with known components in a frame that I'm very tuned to. The primary difference in the two motors is the larger 1" port window cut in the piston & I used thinner base gasket and 4 mm head gasket (compared to .8 mm). The exhaust, RST reed valve, CDI, carb (SHA Dellorto clone), initial jetting (.70) & head are the same as used previously to power the Sky hawk.

I'll run a couple tanks of fuel through her before letting it go rip, but my initial impression is that it sounds & feels pretty stout. It also started right up cold or hot, idled well and was really smooth a low speeds...and showed better low speed manners than the last reed valve China girl engine I built. It is also louder, but it's not offensive.  Rick C.

.

   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 25, 2017, 06:10:20 PM
Plug read rich which I expected with riding in town and limiting my short acceleration runs to no more than 5,000 rpm. I'm leaving the .70 jet in till I get some 10 or 15 minute runs completed at more or less constant 6,000 cruising speed. Also I will install an expansion chamber with muffler for testing later & that will lean the mixture quite a bit by itself. I'd be surprised if I need go past .75 jetting even with the expansion chamber or be ok for all around riding with the current .70 in place.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 25, 2017, 06:53:46 PM
Rick ,

What are you using for a tachometer ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 26, 2017, 12:09:04 PM
Pete I use a small motor digital combination hour meter tach during break in primarily. I have several and only two currently in use. Run time meter is quite accurate, rpm is too slow to use for say shift points...only use for ballpark engine speed for example stock engine might show 5,500 rpm as pretty easy to reach after break in whereas the motor after modification could show 8,000 as easily and quickly reached. I'm interested in the relative improvement not exact data. Whether I'm at 4,500 rpm or 7,000 actual speed  is not critical, but the differential percent of increase is. One wire hookup, wrap the lead around the spark plug cable & secure in place with zip ties and tape. $15. hard to beat. Mine are all several years old & the non replaceable batteries are still good. Throw aways that serve my purpose.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 26, 2017, 04:43:54 PM
I looked at that type a while back and then again just recently .
The 'new' ones seem to have a replaceable battery , but , from what you say it might be a while before required .

Pete . :)

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 27, 2017, 11:38:34 AM
I'd not checked the new offering but a replaceable battery would be great. The sealed ones I have do not cloud up with moisture big +.

The sender on these is a bit slow. I notice that when the engine speed is held constant the readout is constant but if I twist up to say and indicated 4,000 and immediately come off throttle when that 4 k is indicated, the tach might read 4,500 a second or so later. I'm thinking 4,500 rpm was actually reached (not 4 k) and the sender is just that slow. This is the reason I wouldn't trust shifting near red line as indicated by these little hour meters/tach. At 9k indicated you might be at an actual 11 k.

I'm thinking the tach is fairly accurate, but slow. Coming off throttle of course is way off indicated as well. I really just concentrate on the steady rpm indicated. 

It's a gadget that I find useful for comparison, just as I use the inexpensive laser heat units; if the stock head read 325 degress after a 30 minute ride, a heat reading of 250 degrees on a very similar test ride with a custom head would please me very much...though neither reading was exactly correct.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 27, 2017, 06:15:28 PM
For the few bucks involved , it's good enough for the 'light weight' work .

I found one at your back door : https://tinyurl.com/yc6gn9dw

It's suppose to have a 35,000 hour battery . That's a longgg time .

I guess , for 9 bucks we shouldn't ask for too much . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 28, 2017, 03:52:12 AM
Pete that is the exact hr. meter/tach I have...seems the price has gone down though. How 'bout that battery life? A couple of mine are 3 plus years in use and still function well. No back light so using at night would require rigging a small LED. Visibility in strong sunlight can also be a problem, but quite a lot of utility for $9.

Bet you're glad to be out of Rockport, Tx. or the upper Tx. Gulf coast in general right now....

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 28, 2017, 05:54:28 AM
Pete that is the exact hr. meter/tach I have...seems the price has gone down though. How 'bout that battery life? A couple of mine are 3 plus years in use and still function well. No back light so using at night would require rigging a small LED. Visibility in strong sunlight can also be a problem, but quite a lot of utility for $9.

Bet you're glad to be out of Rockport, Tx. or the upper Tx. Gulf coast in general right now....

Rick C.

Rick ,

That'd be a sure bet .
We've been watching that storm pretty closely , as we came to know a few folks down there .
We can't really imagine the level of devastation , but for pictures .

Yesterday , we visited with friends that were planning to spend the Winter in Rockport . I told them they may want to consider someplace else . I doubt they will have that area cleaned up and ready to host snowbirds , at least to a large extent . I'm sure some  camps were totaled .

Just wondering about the tach , have you tried attaching the pickup wire ( bared end ) directly to the plug connector under the cap ?
Maybe the 'slow' latency would be eliminated ???
Then again , I'm not sure the tach could handle direct contact with that much current .
That might just fry the tach as it is grounded and would likely ground the motor spark in the process .
Maybe it's a bad idea .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 28, 2017, 03:16:03 PM
Rick ,
Maybe you already found this , but , I ran across this in an older thread and wondered if you still had interest in sidecar suspension .

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sAn1_HOlOSI/UyXTT6QaBMI/AAAAAAAABDU/gbe1rXLdNEM/s800/TR5.jpg)

From this thread : http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=788.0

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 29, 2017, 04:07:50 AM
Pete thanks for the photo and link. I had seen this rig on another forum but the angles weren't helpful. The photos in his posts here are pretty much what I was trying to verify. Thanks.

This is the leaning wheel design I have been planning to use for the Simplex rig, not an untested concept, it was fairly common in the 1930's up. Don't confuse this with the sidecar racing "steering wheel" design in which the car's "co-driver" actually steered the outside wheel as the bike rider controlled the conventional bars. The leaning wheel does not steer only articulates in and out as the bikes lean dictates & is transferred by the tie rod from bike frame to car wheel. Bike leans left or right and car wheel follows.  A mobile parallelogram is the geometric formed in the process.

Once I get off my current bike build and various motor's modifications I'll get on the side car starting with the Simplex frame mounts, all removable and then the side car connections. Probably my major Winter project. I hope I'm spared building another bike for awhile.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 30, 2017, 03:13:45 AM
Engine mods complete on the X-celsior Schwinn as well as installed on the bike and running. I'll run her pretty easy till rings seat and the reed valve gets a little flex in operation, but feels & sounds good. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 01, 2017, 07:14:20 AM
Thought I'd share a problem with you guys. Runaway 2 stroke motors. Specifically single cylinder with carb. Caused by lean cylinder mixture, usually due to air leaks at a seal, intake or carb. Idling engine goes to full rpm under no load. Kill switch or pulling plug leads won't stop the motor, it's dieseling & doesn't require a source of ignition, just pressure & heat. Choking is in my experience the quickest and surest method of stopping the runaway. Shop rag if air cleaner is off. Stop the air and stop the engine.

I used to see this quite often in 2 stroke single cylinder outboards, but this one is the first I've experienced in many years & the only one I've ever had on a 2 cycle bike engine other than a Kawasaki.

Ever seen this on a Simplex?

I'll let you know where my engine leak is located after I fix it...still having fun. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on September 01, 2017, 07:37:13 AM
I've never heard of this happening on a Simplex.  There must be a sizable air leak for this to occur.  Interesting topic!  What happens if you put a load on the motor? Without more fuel, I would think it would die.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 01, 2017, 08:46:09 AM
Agreed . Never on a Simplex .

I had a Suzuki 125 , that I rebuilt the motor , get broken in in a few seconds . (http://www.jeepforum.com/gallery/data/4/eyebulge.gif)

I had it on the hoist and doing last adjustments before firing . I was turning the motor over with the kick lever , by hand , when it lite up and off to the races it went . Kill switch ... no good . Choke lever ... no effect . I grabbed a shop rag and 'capped' the exhaust , which finally killed the runaway . I immediately heard comments from all the mechanics to the effect that I wouldn't have to worry about breaking in that motor , followed by laughter .

Cause :  a bad throttle cable that held the throttle part way open .

Replaced that cable and the bike ran like charm for years . It was the best performing small bike I've ever had . 

Pete .. :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 01, 2017, 10:37:56 AM
Yes Rick it takes a pretty good size leak to cause the "diesel" runaway. Pete the throttle has nothing to do with this type runaway which can only be called a "diesel effect" if the throttle slide or butterfly are completely closed and yes placing a load immediately on the engine slows it down and gives one time to get the choke on which will kill it every time. On my motobike it would continue idling at about 30 mph & appeared to have no intention of dying, by adding throttle it actually accelerated pretty well. I know for a fact this particular bike normally has a difficult time getting to 30 mph... period, but I've noticed and had others mention that in racing 2 strokes they tend to noticeably pickup power just prior to running out of fuel and the charge begins to lean out.

This is sure not a topic that an owners book or shop manual will get into, but I saw it frequently working on 2 cycle outboard singles way back when...they sometimes detonated in the test tank before the engine could be choked out. 

I'm glad this hasn't been a common problem with the Simplex. This is the first time I've heard of it occurring with a China girl motor as well, but that's what happened.

Cylinder base gasket blew out, so I opted for the thicker black gasket & a smear of sealant. Idles normally now and is just as slow as it was before. It's a real putt putt, but fun. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 01, 2017, 11:16:19 AM
 The throttle being partly open and who knows what the fuel ratio was at the time was the initiation of the runaway . As far as I know the throttle never opened more than that initial amount . There was nothing wrong with the kill switch , as it worked fine as long as I owned the bike . The only way I could stop that motor was by 'choking' the exhaust as the intake was a closed system and the choke lever did nothing , except maybe enhance the problem , as it was an enrichment type carb with no choke  butterfly . It was a matter of a second for it to reach screaming RPMs . I know the motor never reached that many RPMs again , at least not while I had it .

I probably never moved so fast before or after that event . ;)

Anyway , maybe it wasn't the diesel effect , but it sure seemed like it with there being no spark once I hit the kill switch .

Pete . :)

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 01, 2017, 01:24:15 PM
Even pulling the plug lead won't stop a traditional gasoline/oil fuel 2 cycle runaway "diesel"... that's why it's called diesel effect 'cause diesels don't utilize a spark plug and the runaway doesn't either ( once the motor is started by the ignition system); once the engine begins the "runaway" sequence all the ignition components are entirely useless including spark plug, CDI, Coil and the kill switch, they aren't needed & aren't a part of  running the motor at that point and can't be used in any way to kill it either... the motor in 2 cycle runaway will run until it's deprived of air, fuel or both, overloaded...or self destructs. Cutting the flow of air is the cheapest and unless the engine blows, quickest way to stop the motor...though a good wall or fairly solid object (or person) could be used to overload an engine mounted in a bike, cart or boat to create enough resistance to cause an engine stall. 

First time it's encountered there is a very great chance of trashing the motor. I had a small boat motor running and turned off the ignition, then pulled the spark lead & it was too late to try anything else...2 stroke toast! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 02, 2017, 01:26:40 AM
little off the particular engine discussed but an engine drivetrain swap I've wondered about would be using a Kawasaki mb5 or better yet the ar80.  GREAT little bike I have seen in good condition for $500
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 02, 2017, 04:15:55 AM
Little off got my attention & now we're talking!

AR-50 or AR-80 Kawasaki, Morrini, or KTB 50 or 80 original or clone great choices all. I would love to see a Simplex built up with one...should fit the frame without a stretch.

That AR-80 at $500. would be mine if I could just hear it run, go through the gears and first be close enough to see & pickup. With the 6 speed and wet clutch & 12 + hp it would be my choice & I'd speculate 75 mph in a Simplex, dependent on final gearing selected. Total weight installed in the Simplex I'd think to be less than stock Servi-cycle. One design problem would be an expansion chamber that looked ok with the Simplex frame...might take some experimentation, but the factory pipe on the AR-80 was pretty straight, long & had a muffler, if recollection serves me. Might perform, look & sound pretty good as well with a stock type exhaust. I would think the hp rating to be with that stock exhaust installed.

I'd pretty much decided to use the KTBC-50 "auto" for my current bike build, I'm fond of the green machines; that's the 9 hp clone that's available new for $500. + shipping from Colorado, but decided to go with what I've been using & have had great luck with in bicycle frames. I sacrificed double the hp & 6 speeds/wet clutch, but since I ride with bicycle tires and brakes on my builds; it kinda made sense, especially to the cops?

Parts? That I don't know for sure on the AR's but KTB clone parts are available as are big bore kits to go to +- 80cc. though new 6 speed transmissions are not.

New versus used is always a factor in swaps...keeps it interesting. I'm hoping to see a performance 2 cycle build in this forum category soon!  Rick C

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 02, 2017, 05:12:54 AM
I managed to flip a few over the years and can say without a doubt, one of the best running little performance 2 strokes ever made for the money "right out of the box".  With such smooth and dependable high rpms, the gearing can be easily set-up for whatever power target/road speed you'd want on a Servi I'd think.  Even more fun than the YSR's I've had IMO.  But I've always been a shifty fifty fan since growing up with mopeds.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 02, 2017, 06:05:26 AM
Hear that Paul. My conversion to the little ones was a 50 cc Bultaco trials bike in the late '60's that weighed maybe 60 lbs (really just a stout bicycle frame, stripped), 4 speeds & incredible in each one & the "saki's" came later. I really like them and had a fresh highly modified one that all the young guys at the shop tried to kill themselves on a couple years back, but let a guy talk me out of it on a trade. Pretty funny to watch 6'4" 240 lb. kids on one of the little green critters. Smiles wouldn't wash off there faces.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 03, 2017, 06:31:52 AM
I remember our local go-cart track sponsoring YSR50 races on occasions.  The original "pocketbike" racers that you could ride on the road.  The MB5 and AR80 were just so much comfortable IMHO tho, with the bigger tires and seating position.  The last one I picked up was in great running condition, the tank was clean inside but had the usual little rust from the cap leak on the kickstand side, flat tires, scraped but complete with signals, no seat tears and title.  I gave him the $500 asking price and thanked him for it.  I cleaned it up, installed new tires, rubber bits and re-touched the paint and think I sold it with-in the week of getting the new title back for less than a grand.  The bike just purred along at 55mph with plenty of rpms and a room for a gear to drop for "fun". If I remember, it didn't even hit on the pipe till almost 3000rpm below red-line, and would run 10k all day.  It was exceptionally quite also.  Only other shifty-fifty I'd like, but never owned would be an Aprilla RS but then your looking at the price of a "real motorcycle" with all their racing upgrades. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 03, 2017, 01:49:52 PM
I'm really trying to not build another bike this year, so this entire discussion of 2 cycle motors is intended to purely motivate others to build a Simplex around a small displacement 2 cycle replacement motor, but if a solid frame fell in my lap I'd be on this for sure. I really like riding my 125 cc 5 speed powered & stretched Simplex, but the unit 2 strokes are so small and light that a stretch would be unnecessary & with DOT tires plus some additional braking laced in the front would result in a scoot that could safely keep up with legal secondary road traffic...without breathing hard.

They do sing as they work the upper band. As I posted earlier even the China girl engines I'm building don't hit pipe till 6,000 or 6,500 yet the middle of the pack (power wise) of the 50 cc KTM's, the C, put's out 9 real hp. I have no real idea what my modified motors make but it's dang sure less than 9 hp. & they run well and they are 66 cc displacement.

I'd forgotten the use of the little motors on the street pocket's and the Aprilla's are much sought after. Finding one for a song would be unlikely. I'd have a hard time spending much more than $700. for a running donor bike just to scavenge the motor & sell off the bits and pieces.

    Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 04, 2017, 08:07:08 AM
They can be found a lot cheaper than you'd think.  I understand they were discontinued into the U.S. because of safety concerns being so fast yet so small and light in traffic and then EPA restrictions on the 2 stroke emissions. They choked them down in the European market at the same time. Most people nowadays just don't want small displacement engines, let alone 2 strokes for a street bike.  I see YSR50s and MB5 and occasional AR80 still come on C.L. for your $5-700 range but like you, (mine's health reasons) I can't/won't invest in a new Servi project in the foreseen future but, this is one idea that I think would work well IMO.  We got a lot in common bud.  I enjoy sharing thoughts with ya.  You and I could collaborate in a shop build quite well I'd bet!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 05, 2017, 05:34:51 AM
I have no doubt we would fare well in the shop together Paul; it helps to be on the same page with others, interest wise, and to share broadly based categories of interests. I've spent the last hour looking at photos from the last several years cycle swap meet wares at Davenport & my head is swimming with refreshed concepts of things I haven't yet built. Even with declining health the prospect of creating something new, to me, keeps me excited & feeling younger than 'ol Art & his evil buddies wants me to feel.

I value your input & experience as well. Having applicable knowledge and not sharing it with others seems a bit self centered. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 08, 2017, 06:26:00 AM
Both modified China girl engines are up and now running well: the little trouble maker in the X-celsior Schwinn frame still feels tight, but only has about half the break in time on it. I don't think it will be quite as lively as the one in the Skyhawk frame. but time will tell. I have one more GT-5 on the shelf, bottom end is ready to go & I have a cylinder and piston ready to mount with some pretty radical transfer porting and piston mods. I'm not going to modify this engine for a reed valve/piston window port, but it should be pretty sporty without the third port and window. The piston is already ramped on both the intake and exhaust side to advance port timing & I go with a black & brown double cylinder base gasket to also advance flow timing. Only other mods required will be to deck the jug & add a 6 cc c n c aluminum head...both alterations increasing the compression ratio back up to a reasonable number since adding the extra base gasket lowers the compression. Selection of head gasket thickness will be based on how it runs after break in using a relatively thick head gasket, to keep the heat down initially. I'll mount it, when finished, on my "test mule" for break in and then let it set; for either a quick replacement unit or for a completely new build project.

I'm kinda' thinkin' a 79 cc Harbor Freight 4 stroke engine build is next, vertical mounted, shaved head, stiffer valve springs, ported and big carb ...small physical size is just the ticket I'm informed to produce 6 hp. Since it will be mounted on a bicycle pedal frame I'll do away with the pull start and not use a centrifugal clutch, instead I'll go with the 3 D manual clutch with a machined output shaft adapter (5/8" to 3/4") allowing me to pedal or bump start rather than use a rope which is a no no (bad shoulder) removing the tin parts also makes a very pretty motor profile and eliminates the bulky lawn mower look.

I've probably bought $5,000. worth of centrifugal clutches over the years and the 3 D clutch is really the solution to getting me on the Predator (any size displacement even the 212 cc) band wagon for real. The 160 cc also is of interest to me for bicycle frames. I really like the feel of riding with the light weight and small motors on the small frames. Of course bump starting/pedal start capability is my first concern, durability has been outstanding for the 3 D units. I'd like to see them offer output sizes to 1" as a V twin Vanguard bumped to 30 hp would be an interesting project for a highway cruiser build on a stretched Simplex frame and DOT compliant tires and wheels, with brakes to match.   

Just dreaming of projects that could and might be...heck a guy might have a side car rig by the time the Vanguard Simplex was ready to roll!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 09, 2017, 05:31:44 AM
Funny how things work out, posted yesterday about not starting any new bike builds, 79 cc 4 stroke & how I like the light & small feel bikes etc. etc. Then last evening my trading a Carter go cart for for some parts and a brand new Predator 22 hp V twin. Now I need a Simplex frame to house it, 'cause that's what it's going in. This one will be not be built with pedal drive or kick start, no pretense of it being a bicycle. All DOT compliant wheels & tires with good brakes front and rear. Geared to keep up with highway traffic, but still primarily a short rides motorcycle.

Frame stretch and reinforcement will be added where indicated. I'm thinking my sidecar project will actually go on this one rather than my Copper gator build. That way I can design the car mounts on a bare bike frame while eliminating having to compromise & design around the kick start lever and bicycle pedals etc. of the 5 speed bike. Plenty of torque with the twin to pull the extra load as well, though the 125 cc 5 speed would be adequate power wise, 671 cc twin is 'mo bettah!

Motor weighs 100 lbs. without battery, but has about 20 lbs. of junk that will be removed so not too bad & then, with parts removed, the engine dimensions don't form as large a footprint as the even CG 125 cc clone 5 speed does, so a battery box shouldn't be a big problem either. Adding 6 inch's to the wheelbase as I did on first Simplex should do it and that really does aid the Simplex maintain higher speed stability as well.

Just a few early thoughts on my "impulse" build, one that I've been thinking about doing for several years. Now I need a donor frame to build on. This is a long time bucket list item I'd like to check off before next Fall & positively no other bike builds in the meantime & "this time" I really mean it, lol.  Rick C.



 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 09, 2017, 05:37:04 AM
Going to go BIG TIRE?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on September 09, 2017, 06:05:54 AM
Rick, that is a lot of power for a Simplex frame.  Stock frames used .065 tube, and I'm not sure that is heavy enough for the kind of power you are putting in one.  I think you are going to need to build most of the frame like you did with the gator.  I look forward to seeing this, as I know that all your builds are top shelf!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 09, 2017, 07:09:14 AM
Thanks Rick I posted an update on another forum just a moment ago & in doing so I expanded my thoughts on the frame issues, reading both posts really brings you up to date. Your comment is absolutely correct. I used heavy wall .140 DOM and lots of gussets and thick steel plate (3/16") on the CG 125 build, only the steering neck & strap seat spring are original Simplex pieces. Modification of a frame is really not an option for the Predator V-twin build. It has to be scratch built.

I came to the conclusion that I can either build a second frame or use the already stretched and much stronger frame that houses the CG 125 clone, with hard points added for the sidecar. I do love the little CG 125 bike but my Harley Davidson "Peashooter" has the same motor plus some performance mods and it's just as fun to ride.

Electric start on the Predator 671 cc eliminates the sidecar design problems encountered with kick start lever operation and pedal bike levers not being necessary for any reason. Really simplifies things on the car side of the bike, both from a car frame design standpoint and ease of daily operation with side car mounted.  This build will be a light motorcycle in every way.

I've not decided, but an engine change is probably the sensible thing to do 'cause I'm absolutely sure that my current frame, with an appropriate fork change & DOT rolling parts with brakes will handle both weight and speed of the bike and a sidecar. Making a nearly identical frame for the twin seems a boring prospect for me, it's kinda' a been there done that type thing.

Building with highway usage in mind will definitely alter my sidecar design choice as well, no leaning wheel! I'll go straight hard car to bike attachment considering even 50 mph speeds with sidecar mounted and occupied.  Do no harm to others is just as important to me as not skinning up my old hide, I hope even more so.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 09, 2017, 07:36:54 AM
Paul I'm thinking 3" on maybe 22" rims . The Copper Gator runs a 3" bicycle tire on 2.125" x 26" wheels and I don't have much room to clear secondary drive chain. If I go the motor swap route it might require going down to a 2.50" tire  but if I build a complete new frame, Simplex style, I can go wide as I want, but super wide probably would kill the vintage look I like. I have a couple of sweet forks in mind that will definitely handle the wider tire, brake and rim combinations.

Going the motor swap out route really opens up some options by lowering my initial cash outlay for motor (a swap) frame (reuse) etc. I won't feel guilty about buying a first class fork, all new rolling stock & motor mods 'cause that's all I'd have invested in the bike make over, all the take offs are as good as new and would be used again or traded/sold. That just leaves the side car, which would have happened anyway...so that money was already spent in my mind months ago.

This is all going to happen guys unless I'm called home, but that's ok too. I'm still planning on tomorrow till it doesn't show up!   Rick C. (still having fun)   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 09, 2017, 10:55:54 AM
Since it's a 1" shaft, clutch selection will be really open.  Depending on direct drive, belt, or heck, you could even drive shaft with that power plant.  You could power your sidecar wheel even with the extra H.P. you'll have available????
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 10, 2017, 05:43:23 AM
Yes Paul the 1" shaft is a plus for clutch options. I'd not thought about driving the car wheel, but have thought about adding an additional brake out there. Fun stuff for sure.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 11, 2017, 06:25:41 AM
Got to thinking out of the box and started sketching frame options. Result? Using the existing frame is out of the picture. Reasoning? It's strong enough, but not long enough. I want to add a lot of size to the frame in both wheel base (16" over stock Simplex base) for overall stability & appropriate sidecar mount locations and add proportionate height as well. I want the frame design to retain the look of  Simplex heritage & influence, but it will obviously not be a re-purposed Simplex frame. I've had a custom motorcycle frame in my mind for some time now based on the diminutive Simplex style coupled with '60's and 70's Ducati competition frame construction & a more current bicycle frame design called a Phoenix.

Going this route sure expands the complexity, total time and expense of my V-twin/sidecar build but really gets me pumped up about the build. It's more than just a do over, plus I love my little 125 cc Simplex Gator as it is...Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 11, 2017, 06:43:29 AM
Hmm , I can see the start of a new motorcycle company , centered on the new RickC-ycle design ( sidecar optional ;) ) .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on September 11, 2017, 08:06:55 AM
Those Phoenix bikes are really nice. I especially like the one with the girder front end on it.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 11, 2017, 08:46:25 AM
Pete if our nation was not so litigation crazy I might consider it, but why screw up a great hobby with work?

Rick the Phoenix is sweet as it is I like the flatter motor mount arrangement of the lower double tubes, the single upper tube on the Phoenix I see as a double tube in my design, as in the Simplex, but closer together since no saddle spring would be used. DOM tube at least .120 wall 1" used head to drops... steering head custom fab as well, but boxed in with steel plate similar to the Simplex design.

I'm liking the Harley double springer fork by Pat D. at Sportsman to round out the frame, but have two other fork designers in mind as well with sweet motorcycle springers, but lead time is in months for both.

Rick C.

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 11, 2017, 08:58:50 AM
Pete if our nation was not so litigation crazy I might consider it, but why screw up a great hobby with work?

Rick C.



Good point .

Too many thinking 'the land of the free' means 'land of the free ride' . :(

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 12, 2017, 03:47:13 AM
Pete "free ride" sounds almost too nice how 'bout "free load"?

Are you located out of harms way from the lingering & widespread storms? It's really been a radical Fall storm season, even with the wildfires burning out West....what's next?

Still beautiful here in Indian Territory, so I've been riding a lot. The X-celsior Schwinn engine finally came to life during a short ride yesterday just before sunset. Just spun up to 6,500 rpm & kept going. Really caught me off guard, but I'm now certain the mods paid off on both motors. I'm pretty certain that the new reeds finally "flexed" 'cause the rings should have already seated, but I am satisfied with whatever combination came into play.

Both motors have some 4 stroking when relatively cool, but that mostly goes away after a good warm up & is only noticeable then for a narrow band at mid range, but now the application of more throttle blows right past it...smooth 2 cycle past that point after a good warm up.

Both motors are built up with almost identical mods, but feel quite different still. The X-celsior Schwinn has the expansion pipe and stock CDI and the Skyhawk has the "kit" muffler and the aftermarket performance "rocket CDI" the X-celsior is lighter...but final sprocket gearing is lower on the Skyhawk, it has 2" greater tire diameter that should offset  the 4 tooth difference. The Skyhawk is noticeably quicker off the mark and accelerates faster from any point in speed during cruising, despite the short, baffled exhaust pipe. I've tested the Skyhawk with the muffled "expansion" pipe on it and it runs even better with that setup, so I'm led to believe that the Rocket CDI on the Skyhawk is working really well?? Or it could be, & this is my favored opinion, that the long stroke motors small original design differences, including the tiny stroke increase are not really beneficial. Of course some motors just don't come off the assembly line quite right. Right now I'm happy with both motors, but the GT-5 Skyhawk is quicker & still my favorite version of the China girl engine. As the X-celsior Schwinn is ridden a bit more and the stock CDI module is changed out, along with some fine tuning on the carb jetting & plug heat range selection. I'll no doubt find more performance, but even if not it's quite peppy as is. Building additional power, past this point, is easy enough but low speed manners will suffer as will engine durability. I'm not going racing. I'm thinking output now somewhere close to 5 hp...from 66 cc, with full race mods on fuel maybe 11 hp in closed course race tune is close to the top hp wise for these Chinese weed wackers.

As a motor replacement on a Simplex? I'd say no even though the electric start version or the pull start mod would work for starting the clutch would not hold up well or be up to hauling the extra weight from dead stop with out significant gear reduction, modified CVT or light gearbox addition. I know better engine selections are already in use as replacements for the Simplex.

The China girl is a really neat little motor for bicycle motoring however & that's a good place to use them.  Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 12, 2017, 05:44:11 AM
Rick ,

We've been fortunate to have had a Michigan type Summer and now Fall . So far , the storms have stayed away , thankfully .

China girls ... I have to wonder how a pair , say side by side , would perform in a Simplex frame . They might put out enough to accomplish some satisfaction . ???

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 12, 2017, 12:53:06 PM
I remember seeing a photo of inline CG but can't recall a side by side, dual pull clutch lever.   Don't recall the starting setup, but probably two independent pull starts as the electric starts were only recently introduced.  Build two up, at 5 hp each and there would be more than enough power. Inline arrangement would take some cosmetics to make it look decent though. Side by side they would look pretty cool.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 14, 2017, 03:46:52 AM
I really am addicted to modifying the 66 cc China motors. I found a case set and cylinder to use as a base (it's really not a kit) to build up a case inducted reed valve motor that has the potential of 10 hp + output, but I'm thinking I could  map the port timing toward the mild side and still get maybe 6 or 7 tractable street pony's out of it. It looks like the parts are a design copy of the Arrow team bike race motors, but I'd imagine I'll have a lot machine work to preform on the Chinese castings before I can use them. The parts set is under $150.00 and includes a reed valve and Kehin clone carb,gaskets, mod barrel, piston set and engine cases with bearings, no head or bottom end parts or assembly/setup instructions; definitely not a kit with much fitting and assembly required & of course no instructions or guarantees provided. Probably won't sell too many of these puppies, so I'm really not too sure why they would even bother with an attempt to market the parts,for the price I couldn't justify the time to machine the cases, let alone buy the individual parts. The carb, air cleaner and reed valve sell for $100. by themselves & that price alone is pretty dang sweet. So for me it's a no brainer. 

On the riding side the prospect of having a 7 hp, 25lb. motor, with a tiny installed footprint and one which has decent street manners; is an engine I can justify building...even if it falls short of my expectations as a street performer. I'm certain I can sell it as a bicycle race motor.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 14, 2017, 06:23:38 AM
So , there's a bicycle racing market ?

Must be an underground type thing , as I've never heard of such a thing .
I guess it's not too far fetched an idea . After all , bicycles have wheels and we all know were there are wheels there will be a race . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 14, 2017, 06:44:41 AM
There was a guy who commuted to work on his engine modified 18sp street bike next to our shop.  He had a 4 stroke engine with a friction wheel type set-up on a rear rack that moved him at over 50mph un-assisted.  Pretty nice little set-up.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 14, 2017, 02:09:38 PM
Pete SOCAL Motor Bicycle Racing is the group I 'kinda follow, nice tracks, good participation and organized structured events and classes. Many of the bikes are pretty awesome with qualified riders some pretty fast racing in the top classes. You might want to give them a look see. I just like racing but don't intend to actually get out there and mix it up. I'd probably be the beaver on the track & get out in the middle of the course and dam things up! Rick C.
 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 14, 2017, 02:49:05 PM
50 mph seems to be the ultimate goal of many motorized bike riders especially on the 66cc China girls. Going to a larger, more powerful motor & possibly adding a second or third speed to the drive line really makes more sense for actually riding at that sustained speed. The friction drive setups can work great, but it's hard to make them look very appealing. Of course 18 speeds does nothing unless he is pedal assisting, runs out of gas or breaks down, needs exercise etc.
There are however jack shafted shift kits available to mount an engine in the traditional frame location and that allows slick gear changes on the fly. I've not built one, but chain breakage can be a problem on the 18 thru 24 speed bikes even with top quality chain they are very tiny and won't handle much power for long.  My thought would be to eliminate the derrailuer 3 speed system up front along with the inside & outside chain rings (making a 18 speed into a 6 speed) then setting up the rear to run only three sprockets, spaced far enough apart to allow at least a high grade BMX chain to be used. By going to 3 speeds the chain line is kept much straighter with the remaining, centered, chain ring up front & eliminating as much chain angle as possible also decreases the likely hood of throwing a chain or breakage. A custom three speed cassette for the hub would be be the slickest way to do it right...probably take a lot of test time to make it all happen.  I think the higher quality models of Shimano shift systems could handle at least the weight of a BMX chain, possibly even a 415 size chain.  Just me thinking out loud again. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 15, 2017, 03:51:03 AM
Paul you asked about clutch noise on the China girl engine in an earlier post & I later thought of something that is commonly associated with "clutch noise" & vibration that's caused by poor assembly & QC at the factory.

If you pull the clutch side engine cover and check the small 20 tooth bevel gear for "wobble" you may be surprised at how bad it is, and quite common, but it's easy to spot & correct by removing the slot head screw and spark plug then rotating the engine (some assistance here is nice...easier to check on the workbench) clean any excess gear lube to clearly see how the 2 gears run out. use a small hammer to tap down the high spot till you get them to run  true. That's part one. Then check the shaft for stand up, which is any amount protruding past the outside of the gear surface, it is quite common that the lock washer and slot head screw when torqued down properly will not be in contact with the gear itself. A thicker & sometimes larger diameter washer & blue Locktite is my simple solution rather than facing the shaft. A loose gear held in place solely with the Woodruff key will wobble, cause noise or worse. Check for wobble again after assembly and before adding a little gear lube, 'cause you may have to use the hammer again. Repeat till true.

I do this prior to install on every motor. It is a problem & besides not being proper it's really noisy and annoying. Good part is it's quick to check and easy to fix. Here's to a quieter running engine! Rick C.
 
 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on September 15, 2017, 10:38:54 AM
Loose key was the cause of my last one also.  I ended up sanding down an oversized one to "tap fit" and it did work and run much truer causing both less noise and better clutch action.   I may build a motorized bike with my grandson one of these days so this info will probably come in handy in the future.  Thanks for the tips bud.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 15, 2017, 01:04:23 PM
Yes Paul a loose key is often caused as a result of the key bearing most if not all of the rotational load of shaft to gear.

Father/ Grandfather builds are special with boys or girls... a sort of Locktite for generations!  Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 16, 2017, 05:21:47 AM
Pete SOCAL Motor Bicycle Racing is the group I 'kinda follow, nice tracks, good participation and organized structured events and classes. Many of the bikes are pretty awesome with qualified riders some pretty fast racing in the top classes. You might want to give them a look see. I just like racing but don't intend to actually get out there and mix it up. I'd probably be the beaver on the track & get out in the middle of the course and dam things up! Rick C.
 

Hmm , I wrote a reply a couple days ago , but it isn't here anymore . Maybe yesterday's server problem had something to do with that .

Anyway , I couldn't find a specific site for SoCal MBR , other than Facebook . Still , looks like some pretty serious work being done . Interesting .
And , I don't intend 'mixing it up' anymore either . Been there and done that . My reaction time isn't exactly what it was when I was invincible . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 17, 2017, 12:41:02 PM
Facebook is also what I have on them Pete.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on September 21, 2017, 06:13:49 AM
I turned the V-twin predator over to my Harley guy to build out. He's good so that means he's always covered up in work. How long? It's a start. I'll be very satisfied with 30 dependable hp. & a valve train that will hold up once the rev limiter is removed.

I'm making a template of the engine and battery box profile to size the frame with. I'm guessing 63" but want to be certain. I'll be going with a double tube frame design and low profile. I'll use 17" - 36 spoke wheels both stainless and DOT rated, discs front, rear and on the sidecar. S rated (110 mph) tires 3" wide rear and 2.25" front & side car. The overall tire height inflated is right at 25" for the rear & 24" on the front. I plan on having 3.5" ground clearance on both bike and sidecar. Target weight of the bike 220 lbs. with sidecar at 75 lbs.

As I posted earlier I won't mimic the Simplex frame lines though I'd like to. It's just a size & space thing. To house the V-twin and keep proportions correct the bike would be not only extremely long but tall as well. Space requirements for the V dictate top tubes and bottom tubes be parallel to each other as well as the ground.

Swing axle may be used in a covert fashion.  Rick C.


 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on September 21, 2017, 06:25:15 AM
Sounds interesting , Rick .

Please , keep us posted . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Reggie LeGros on October 21, 2017, 10:58:49 AM
Your bike looks great.  You are a very talented dude
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 23, 2017, 04:32:14 AM
Thanks Reggie. Your list of restores is quite impressive as well. A quality build "to factory" spec, in my experience, is more time consuming and expensive than are my current and past flights of fantasies. I of course am interested not only in all things Simplex but also the James bikes as well. Though I'm certainly not an authority concerning either. Updated photos of past builds and of course your current Simplex conversion would be a treat for us all.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 09, 2017, 07:39:48 AM
Putting parts together for the V-twin build & riding some everyday the Simplex Cooper Gator is proving very reliable transport, but the fun factor is off the charts. Photos as I get around to sizeing.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 15, 2017, 05:52:27 AM
Update on the V-twin soft tail build. Swing arm frame & components are placed & sized. Shock will be 10.5" spring over air (not pictured) bicycle bottom bracket components are used for swing arm pivot. Forks shown will be widened 1.5" to clear 160 mm disc rotor. Wheels are DOT compliant 17" & tires speed & load rated. 12 mm & 14 mm titanium axle bolts will be used. Custom hub adapter & rotor adapter secure & locate the 160 mm rear rotor. Next step will be to add gussets & lengthen the horizontal drops to the swing arm assembly. Then it's on to the motor & sidecar mount assembly.

Still think about 60" or so wheelbase to house either of my V twin engines. Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 05, 2018, 06:23:03 AM
Some progress on my v twin build. Rear swing arm about 75% complete & front forks even closer. Everything in between not even started. The rear triangle is a fat tire frame cast off...with mods, but sizing was about perfect. Most of the fasteners will be replaced with proper strength hardware once exact lengths are determined.

Front forks have been widened from 4" to 5.5" to allow fitment of disk brake rotor hub. It can mount dual rotors but I think one will be enough? Can easily add another. 

Rather than use a jig to hold everything in place while getting everything in it's proper placement I'm using the fat tire bike frame. The rear triangle is the only part of the fat tire bike to be used in the final frame. I'm still thinking wheelbase will be just under 59".

 Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 05, 2018, 11:31:10 AM
Looking good , Rick .

What is the diameter and thickness of the rotors you're using ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 06, 2018, 04:54:50 AM
Thanks & hope you're enjoying the sunshine out in Az. man I feel for the guys up N. right now 'cause we've had wind chills at -17 for a couple of days here, but without the snow & I hated it!

Rotors are S-Ram Avid regular 160 mm mountain bike rotors 1/16" thick. The calipers are also Avid and are mechanical. I've used these on many bikes over the last 20 years on both motorized and pedal bikes without a single failure. So it's what I trust. I run the same setup on the front wheel of my 170 lb. Simplex tribute bike & it used alone is adequate for my stopping  requirements on that ride. I use the Archer drum on the front of the Harley tribute & always use both front and back to stop confidently from speeds over 25 mph or so.

The hub I laced up on the front of my current build has rotor mounts on both sides so I can if needed run a dual brake up front & by widening the forks I now could run 180 mm to 220 mm rotors as well, but doubt that will be necessary even with the added weight of the sidecar, which will also run the Avid brake setup which will be operated by a foot lever mounted on the sidecar frame. 

I haven't completely ruled out a sidecar mount design to switch the car from the V twin bike to my Simplex 5 speed either. Still having fun just doing it slower.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 06, 2018, 08:05:38 AM
We definitely struck it rich for sunshine and warm temps . High 30s to mid 40s at night makes for good sleeping and low to mid 70s during the day is shorts weather . Winds are light or none . I ride daily .
Another week before we head to Yuma . The temps are even nicer there by 5 to 10° . ;)

I asked about the rotors because I'm thinking about a front disc on the Simplex , but , it has to run decent first .

Anyway , thanks for sharing . I have a little more food for thought . :)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 29, 2018, 06:56:23 AM
I've been changing things up on some old bike builds and forks seem to be what needed changing. I found a set of Harley style four spring forks that suited me, they have quite a bit of classic details and actually ride very nice. They are 1" threaded steer tube & are constructed of 3/16" plate steel & .125" wall tube & will clear a 3" x 26" bicycle tire. I'd say plenty stout enough for a Simplex weight or small cycle build.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 29, 2018, 07:11:02 AM
Nice fork , Rick .

Don't even need a headlight , as shiny as those springs are . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 29, 2018, 08:34:19 AM
Thanks Pete as shiny as the springs are the fabricator included on the top leg and steer tube plate a nice place to bolt a head lamp to. I wish they had been as helpful by including a sturdy fender brace bracket under the crown brace, but I can probably figure it out.

I have a study set of un-sprung Indian style girder forks scheduled for arrival today. I plan on mounting those to my Grubee bike frame. If they are built as strong as they look I'll buy another set to use for a leaf spring fork I've been putting off building for some time now.  The V twin build is awaiting my finishing the torpedo style tank to a point of proceeding with the main frame.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 29, 2018, 08:45:50 AM
 It's been good riding weather here in Yuma . If it's been anything close in Indian Territory I can see why you've been putting projects off . :o :D

Just kidding .

The leaf spring project would be an interesting endeavor .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 30, 2018, 04:12:55 AM
It's been decent riding weather here in the late afternoon for the last few days, but I got in a few hours of work as well.

The girder forks came in and the are robust plate steel 5/16" thick, 1/2" solid steel girders and really heavy duty tapered legs, which appear to be a minimum of .120 mm wall tube tapered down from 7/16" to 1/2" by 1/2" wide. They are wide enough for 2.5" tires by 26" with 1" steer tube. I'm mounting this one on my old Grubee bike frame and ordering another to use as the basis of a 4 leaf Indian style springer fork. Which I hope to use on an upcoming moto bicycle build.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 30, 2018, 10:09:46 AM
Looks to be pretty decent quality .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 05, 2018, 07:05:22 AM
Now that it's on the bike I like, but it was not a quick change out. Dropping the head of the frame by more than 4" demanded a lot of changes to other areas of of the bike. The saddle became a "ski ramp" & no way to stay off the frame tank until the rear came down to within an inch or the rear tire. That solved and it was time to adjust the bars up a lot 'cause to reach them required lying flat down on the tank, board racer style, looked pretty cool but no position for a 70 year old to ride in. Once the bars were up brake and clutch controls had to be adjusted the combination of these things required a shortening of all the cables (not yet accomplished). Then the engine had to be re positioned in the  frame 'cause it had almost become a horizontal jug at that point, now with the motor back in a more vertical state the motor drive chain was too tight & a link had to be removed...which resulted in a change in rear axle/wheel position, which you guessed it caused the pedal side chain to loose and a half link was then required to bring some order back into my world. But wait the rear exhaust bracket wasn't long enough and a new one had to be fabricated as well. I won't go into my efforts to get the disk rotor and caliper to function with the billet fork/disk brake adapter that is advertised as "bolt on ready to easily convert virtually most any fork into a disc brake compatible setup". 

As for the fork itself nothing but praise and bolted right up, but after that...wow!

Before the little silver bike had a motocross bike look and feel. Now looks a lot more vintage & feels sporty as heck. It was all worth it to me on both the bikes I just changed forks on. I will clean up the rat's nest of cables on both bikes as well, when I decide everything else is working properly.  Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 05, 2018, 09:53:22 AM
Rick ,

Lookin' good .
Now you know it 'fits' , paint or powder coat ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 05, 2018, 10:46:24 AM
Looking good Rick.  I can’t wait to see what you do to convert one of those front ends to a leaf spring.  If you need front rockers, I have a bunch of Simplex ones that would probably work well.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 05, 2018, 11:09:02 AM
Pete, my favorite color is aged metal, so the almost 4 year old aluminum frame is just getting a bit of distressed look to it; which in my mind is good. The fork being steel could end up painted flat black or oxidize & get a stop rust coating...which turns the rust flat black. The brass and copper pieces have aged to brown.

This frame has about 10,000 miles on it (engine too) I build and really ride all my bikes, but this one is my daily rider & I've no reason why, though I've developed a curiousity as to how far it can go. My Simplex has less than a thousand miles in two years + & the Harley tribute maybe 600. My Indian "Outlaw" that I put the 4 spring Harley syle fork on may have as much as 2,000 miles of riding all the others less. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 05, 2018, 12:02:51 PM
Thanks Rick, I have 4 leaf, 1750 lb. utility trailer spring that I'll cut and taper & the 2nd. girder style fork is on order. I used the 1957 Simplex fork on my Harley Peashooter build & the cast rockers were a big reason I did. I actually intended to ask if there were any available, so I'm interested just P.M. a price & photo. Of course if they are the same style as the '57 I'll not need a photo. I think the cast rockers will add a lot to the look I'm after to utilize with the leaf fork project for an early loop frame Indian bike build powered by a 20 + hp Predator 212 and 3-D manual clutch that is in the motor shop now awaiting a performance build. Right now I'm spending money but not accomplishing much in the way of  fabrication. V-twin build's fuel tank is progressing with the cylinder built and baffles installed, but now I'm stalled with the old bikes reworks included a couple of modifications to my Simplex tribute, Copper gator.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 05, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Rick ,

I like the old metal look , too .

Here's a pic of the CB750 I built about 15 years ago . That is actually a hammered grey paint , although it looks one color smooth in that shot .

(https://s26.postimg.org/a2og34so9/screenshot_26.png)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 05, 2018, 03:37:57 PM
Those are such great bikes & you did a fine job with her Pete; grey or silver paint or powder...looks super.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 05, 2018, 03:57:56 PM
Thanks Rick .

They really are nice bikes . It served me well for more than 7 years .
I'd do another , but I want a shop before I tackle a build like that . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 06, 2018, 05:33:52 AM
Pete are you still in the Yuma area?  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 06, 2018, 05:56:34 AM
Rick, I sent you an email, did you get it?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 06, 2018, 06:35:06 AM
Yes Rick & thanks so much! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 06, 2018, 07:11:16 AM
Yes , Rick .

We're still South of Yuma . Nice and dry .
We'll probably leave here about mid March and find that elusive 75° . Not that we're complaining about the low 80s .  ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 08, 2018, 05:49:30 AM
Lovely weather there, but zero wind chills in the early mornings here warming by late afternoon into the upper thirties, so I'm still riding a little each day.

I've been getting a small amount of fabrication completed on the "torpedo tube" style fuel tank for the V-twin. It's 1/8" steel tube and 6" in diameter...2 gallon capacity & now baffled. I'll cap it with round dome caps on both ends. It's got to be study as it comprises the complete upper frame and supports both the steering head & is the upper connection for the dual down tubes and the rear saddle tube. I plan on using dual fuel bungs located side by side.

I' don't get much done but I'll keep pecking away at it.  Rick C.

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 08, 2018, 06:43:49 AM
Any progress is progress .

Just keep doing , it'll get done . One step at a time . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 09, 2018, 05:30:22 AM
Pete it's good to hear that you will be staying out there awhile longer. It's nice not having much weather to deal with. As for Indian Territory I shouldn't whine it's not been protracted cold here just bad spots. Yesterday and today very mild low 60's....followed by a couple of cold days etc. been that way most of the Winter. I actually put in about 4 hrs. on bikes yesterday after lunch & made some progress & plan on more today. All of it just detail & upkeep yet necessary.

I lost my main fabrication buddy, a great guy, yesterday after a brief but painful illness & I felt it best to stay busy. We built some cool vehicles together & most were drivers/riders that still won trophies when shown. He will be missed by many & all have their own good memories of a good man. 

Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 09, 2018, 07:09:44 AM
Sorry for your loss , Rick .

Agreed , keeping busy seems to help .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 15, 2018, 06:43:28 AM
Thanks Pete.

Forecast for 85 degrees her today in Indian Territory...12 degrees three days ago. So I'm going to ride a little and continue on bike upgrades & service....clutch hincky on one moto bicycle and headset bearing replacement required on another. I'm hoping to get started on the Simplex Copper Gator as well. I've determined to convert the foot operated shift to a hand shift lever; as I like the look and feel of the hand shift on the Harley Peashooter, but will convert both bikes to a right hand lever & left hand clutch. If you recall I went to a left hand throttle and brake on the Harley & left hand shift lever/right hand clutch. While it feels strange, it works well. I don't really like operating the controls on it & seldom ride the Harley because of it, so I'm changing things around.

Also both these two bikes have operable bicycle pedals as did all early day moto cycles. These also operate the rear coaster brakes (as did the early day bikes) but the right side pedal has to be in a perfect position to use the kick start lever. Poor design on my part, but a folding pedal will solve the problem & allow starting from the straddle position as I now have to place the bike on stand before starting from the standing position next to the bike. Try that  after a stall at a busy intersection, not recommended. Living in a small town it hasn't been a problem, but it's not right & I've known it from the jump so I'm making it right.

Both the Simplex & Harley bikes run and ride great, but little things make the difference. I want the look & feel of classic early 20th. century bikes while having the dependability of a more modern power & drive train. At least that's my motivation.

Though I've a load of work to do on my V-twin, side car etc. I need these things sorted first on the ones I put on the road.   Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 15, 2018, 08:35:19 AM
Ha . Sounds like me .

Things that need done on each machine . Life ... always something with these kids . LOL

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 23, 2018, 04:48:09 AM
Yeah Pete I've been tinkering on "completed" projects my entire life. I can't seem to let them be. Selling has been the only answer I've come up with, when it's gone it's done! One of the things that I've wanted to add to the Simplex Gator was a copper velocity stack & a brass one on the Harley "pea shooter". So I'm adding those to my to do list while I'm tinkering on bikes.

It's been a solid sheet of ice here in Indian Territory for the last two days, but should melt off today. I was at lunch when the roadways glazed over & it was a "fun" ride for a couple of miles getting home on my 2.235" tires & 48" wheelbase Grubee, just a couple of slips, no falls & much relief on shutdown. For certain it really wasn't a good decision to take the chance.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 23, 2018, 07:56:14 AM
Ha . Ice ... two narrow wheels and two feet . Very easy on the throttle and brakes . About triple time for any distance .
Yup . I've been down that same road , more than once . LOL
Good you made it home without too much 'pain' . ;)

The copper and brass stacks sound like nice additions .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 23, 2018, 12:22:55 PM
Praise God next 10 day forecast is high 50's to mid 60's I'm so ready. I'd perish in a really cold weather area, probably whine myself and all around me to death in the process as well.

I'm hoping to get in a few hours of work each day & make some real progress on my current projects as my health has been much better despite the cold. I've also received some really needed parts that should add some incentive to accomplish more.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on February 23, 2018, 06:03:06 PM
Great that you're feeling better , Rick . :)

Maybe you hit the h in the second sentence by mistake . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 27, 2018, 08:09:13 AM
Pete I decided to forego adult beverages 3 decades ago and I've used the savings to build vehicles. I'm even harder to get along with as well & not nearly as much fun.

I started on the Simplex yesterday, but first took it out for a half hour cruise in the country. Nice day & she performed well, first time I've ridden her for more than a couple of miles at a time, all in town. I've mentioned that I'm pleased with the way this bike rides, but I've decided to change several things that will definitely alter the look, feel and operation.

I was recently gifted with a set of Simplex fork rockers & this generous act jump started my interest in building a leaf spring girder fork that I've had in mind for a long while now, but always put off waiting for the right bike to come along. I've decided the Simplex Copper Gator is the right bike. The rockers will be reversed to allow the wheel axle to trail (follow) the fork rather than lead as it does with the dual spring Simplex fork. Ride characteristics will no doubt be altered as a result since positive trail is increased, but I'm hoping that I won't have to change head angle to compensate at higher speeds. Generally speaking increasing trail tends to slow responsiveness while promoting stability at higher speeds. I'll just wait to ride it and see.

Though I like the bikes look with the Sunlite dual springers & I've no complaints as to the ride quality; I'm wanting to go with a more robust fork construction because I'd still like to fit a sidecar to the Simplex at some point & I'm afraid to push the limits of the Sunlite fork any further.

I'll also abandon the foot shift feature of the 5 speed transmission & add a hand shift lever on the right side of the bike. This alteration is purely nostalgic on my part 'cause to foot shift works great and is no doubt faster to operate, but I've enjoyed riding my Harley Peashooter that has a left hand shift lever (which will also receive a shift switch to the right side) & is a bit more classic in both look & feel.

The Simplex tribute bike will also get some minor changes one of which is a rear sprocket change from 54 tooth to 44 tooth at the moment 1st. gear is so low it's useless & I'm sure this will put the over all ratios closer to what the factory intended.

Like I said it's getting close to Spring & I'd like to have my so called completed bikes ready for some riding time & three of them are, which just leaves the Simplex and Harley to attend to. I'll hopefully have the V twin running by next year & if the leaf fork is a success perhaps the sidecar complete & mounted to the Simplex by Fall? My plan is for one car with unique adapters for both the Harley & the Simplex.

Lot of bikeplans for an Old Guy!  Rick C.     
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on February 27, 2018, 09:05:37 AM
I can't wait to see this frontend.  Those Indian Leafspring frontends make those bikes!  Rick, when you flip those rockers around, are you planning on welding them closed and remachining them to fully enclose the axle?  Simplex had rockers just like that on some of the trucks.

Here's a few pictures of a SimplIndian!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 27, 2018, 12:14:48 PM
Rick thanks for everything. The Indian Simplex is a treasure! I love it when bike owners just go with it & have fun.

The closed axle rocker is a necessary safety precaution with the leaf design. I will not weld this one closed but rather insert a 1/2" bushing to enclose the axle this allows simple bicycle type hub/wheel removal while still preventing catastrophic wheel loss. If I ever decide to go with D.O.T. hub & wheels with motorcycle style through axle I will weld the rocker closed and re machine the levers.

The center hole on the rocker is where both legs of the girder fork are to be supported by a ground shoulder bolt, which is the normal vertical drop out location on the fork for the wheel axle, and that open fork drop out will need to be re enforced, welded and enclosed as it becomes the primary load bearing/connection point for wheel to fork. The final rocker hole is for the leaf spring suspension rods connection. The sweet little Indian Simplex fork retains the leading axle design of the original Simplex and probably works just fine, but it is not typical of leaf fork design used through the years by most manufacturers domestic or foreign they predominantly utilized trailing axles.

I should be getting some parts in over the next two weeks and will post 'em up as I go. I decided to use the same type girder fork that I recently installed on one of my China girl 2 strokes & have been riding a lot...it's way over built for bicycle use & much more robust than the Sunlite forks currently on my Simplex. I also decided on using forged eye bolts for my spring to rocker connection & ordered another leaf spring rather than use the old one that I had on hand and was unsure of as to load bearing. I didn't want to waste time cutting & tapering each leaf only to realize the spring was sprung.

One final point. I will attach the spring to fork from the bottom of the fork plate, using the forks steer tube as the  major load bearing component for the leaf spring via an expansion tube inserted inside the steer tube & bolted through the spring pack. This solves two problems (strength) and appearance while creating another...minimal tire to spring pack clearance, by shortening the length of the spring rods, which lowers the axle position at pre-load, an inch or so of clearance is gained. After that only lengthening of the fork legs can add any additional room for tire clearance. Of course I can drop down to 24" wheels, but I'd rather not.  Rick C.       
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on February 27, 2018, 04:04:52 PM
The girder style steel 1" threaded fork I'll be using for the basis of the 4 leaf springer on my Simplex Copper gator.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2018, 07:46:48 AM
Mock up of the leaf fork for the Simplex. Spring pack is 1 3/4" wide & 13" in length. I'm thinking the short pack leaf will be eliminated, so 3 leaf total? 1750 lb. utility trailer spring with a nice 3 1/2" arch. The basic elements are pretty much a go. First thing will be to cut the spring to length and taper the individual springs. Not shown are the 7/8" quill I'll use to attach the spring pack to the inside bottom of the interior of the steer tube & square U bolt 3/8" diameter bolt (seems a contradiction) that will secure the pack to fork plate. I'll use .120 wall 1/2" D.O.M. tube for the spring legs with solid rod insert for a stiffener. I will use  at least one adjuster per side for pre-loading of the spring. Seems a pretty straight forward project at this point & quite robust.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 08, 2018, 08:08:08 AM
First impression with no thought involved :

I'm no expert and I may be all wet here , but , that seems almost too robust , Rick .

Better a little too much than not enough ?

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 08, 2018, 10:01:39 AM
Looks great!  I guess the only way to know if the spring rate is correct is to put it on a bike a test it.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on March 08, 2018, 11:11:32 AM
 I guess it comes down to how much weight is forward, with rider on, over that front wheel.  It would seem to be a bit "stiff" but, it surely won't want to "hop" at higher speeds like a light weight, springy front end that would need a rebound shock.  Has a great look to it either way!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2018, 12:04:03 PM
Thanks guys & all your input is good. The bike weighs 170 lbs. I'm at about the same so about 340 total, without a sidecar. Weight without rider is a little forward, but seated balance shifts a bit to the rear. Springs are rated 1750 the pair for single axle trailer. Eliminating the short leaf and tapering the top two leaves will reduce the spring rate as will cutting the pack in half. 550 to 700 lbs after alterations is my guess. The trailing link setup creates a lot of mechanical advantage that's transferred at road speed as well.  In my experience utility springs are considerably over rated & in real world use will quickly flatten out when max loaded, most low price springs are fabricated with marginal steel & tempering, this one included. Again I'm guessing, but I'm thinking that I'll be close & I've another half spring to tinker with as well & for $27. shipped it's just chump change, but the chance to learn is priceless. Still having fun! Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on March 08, 2018, 12:54:17 PM
Great outlook.  I forgot about the hack so, your probably right on all accounts as far as quality and load ratings and the "more is better" thinking.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2018, 03:02:33 PM
Thanks. I shortened the spring pack, eliminated the short leaf & shortened the top two leafs & tapered them as well. The gray areas show how much material was removed. The leaves square ends made the spring appear more massive than it actually was & more agricultural in purpose. I'll clean up the edges at a future point 80 grit angle grinder makes some nicks!

I'm stalled waiting on quills and U bolt so I can bolt up & determine exact lengths I'll require for springs rods. With any luck all will be in hand by next Monday. So I'll turn my attention to some of the other things I'm changing with my stable of bikes.  Rick C.

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 09, 2018, 06:09:35 AM
I awoke this a.m. thinking about your questions & input concerning the spring pack as well as those posed on another forum & realized a possible solution to spring rebound lies in the use of an "unstrapped" spring pack laid out in the reverse spring pattern that my design displays. I had removed the pack strap that binds the springs together in preparation for shortening and tapering of the individual leaves. With the trailing link design the pack has to be bound in order for all springs to work in unison as the spring is deflected and the wheel assembly rises at the opposite end of the links. Without the strap only the long bottom leaf is doing any work.

Carryall's insight into rebound control might lie in no strap if the single spring is sufficient to properly control the deflection & the other two leaves providing a bit of rebound control as the suspension completes it's cycle. The two longest leafs might be bound, if necessary, to give more deflection control & the remaining leaf (unstrapped) providing rebound control & acting as the spring pack stop. I'm almost hoping the one leaf will adequately handle deflection in order to test the rebound absorption of the remaining two leaves.

I like the look of the short springs atop & if the design was a leading link they would function fine without a spring pack strap. I leave that option on the table if I find the positive trail is too great with the current steering neck angle of the Simplex, but as Rick said ride it and try it. Light at the end of the tunnel doesn't necessarily indicate a train!


  Rick C 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 09, 2018, 06:23:20 PM
Here's my solution to the kick start lever & bicycle pedal interference during starts on my Simplexish Copper gator...folding bicycle pedals.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 10, 2018, 07:01:39 AM
Copper velocity stack made from a copper bell. This one mounted on my Harley Peashooter. I ran it yesterday with the filter out but screen on and it sounded so good! I'm tinkering with a brass cow bell also. I made sure the clapper was removed from both, but they might have made an interesting note before being ingested by the motor.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 10, 2018, 08:19:38 AM
That's a pretty classy lookin' stack , Rick . ;)

Pete  . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: carryall on March 10, 2018, 11:55:56 AM
  Great imagination by repurposing of that bell.  That looks FANTASTIC!!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 10, 2018, 01:53:58 PM
Thanks guys it was kinda' a fun thing which also pulls some good  air flow.    Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 11, 2018, 02:10:36 PM
Some projects go so smooth it's scary. Such was my progress yesterday on converting the 5 speed foot shift (left side mounted) to a hand lever shift lever crossed over to the right side of my Simplex tribute bike. I had located, measured, cut, drilled and shaped various pieces for the assembly of a working mock up without so much as a hiccup when I went to couple the Heim joints with 24 thread 3/8" threaded rod & I found out, yet once again, right hand won't successfully join with left hand thread. So I ordered a few more Heim's of the rt. hand variety. I could have finished the mock with some 1" flat strap & drilled a couple of holes or just threaded some rod. It would have been fine, but the smooth project was tainted and I'll just wait for the right stuff to arrive and pout.

I did find a steel, tapered bicycle chain stay that will do the job as a shift lever, but need a k-nob for it.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 11, 2018, 02:38:57 PM
 Pout time = Think time .

And , it's part of 'it always takes twice as long as you plan' . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 11, 2018, 10:38:40 PM
I really do need to think & plan a lot better. Quite often I'm absolutely positive I have certain parts and I'm wrong & about as often I'm sure I don't have parts, order more & later find the "required items" were on the shelf or in a box etc.
I laugh at myself a lot in order to keep from banging my head up side of a wall.

The chain stay I'm using for a shift lever came off an old Huffy mountain bike donated by a neighbor. I stated the Simplex and noticed smoke coming from the exhaust up around the manifold connection, thought I had a leak at that point. I did have a leak, but not from the exhaust. It was a gas leak from a  split in the body of the brass petcock, not at a joint but in main body. Very small but required an immediate change out, but this time I went with a newer style petcock as I've had several issues with these old style petcocks over the years.

I received more parts Saturday and was notified that more should be delivered Mon. & Wed. so I'm hoping to get some more work on the leaf fork completed this week. The Heim's are scheduled for Thur. so the Simplex shift lever project looks to be a weekend  project.

Also yet to be started but on my Simplex list is the rear disc brake which involves replacing the 54 tooth rear sprocket with a 30 tooth drive these two items the disc conversion & smaller sprocket should improve braking and allow me to actually use 1st. gear on the 5 speed box.

Once these mods are all completed I'll devote some time to mods on the Harley tribute bike & somewhere in all this get back to work on my V twin build and eventually get started on the sidecar I plan to use with both the Simplex and the V twin. At least a years worth of projects I'd suspect.  Rick C.

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 12, 2018, 07:19:11 PM
Got parts in today and attached the leaf spring stack to the girder fork. Photos show the 2 quills I'll use. I cut one of these quills off & inserted it in the steer tube from the top with the bolt head towards the bottom & attached the spring pack with it. I then drilled to 3/8" holes in the 1/4" thick fork plate & bolted the spring pack to the plate using the square U bolt. The spring is solidly attached & that's a fact. The second quill for the handle bars works as normally intended to hold the handle bars securely.

Actually the quill bolt attached through the spring pack doesn't bear much load but plays an important part in lateral stability and absolutely guarantees the fork won't rock front to back when the spring deflects down to follow the suspension movement. I'm not a fan of welding springs in place& this was super easy to assemble once I decided how to do it. 

Next will be the spring rod to rocker lever connections.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 12, 2018, 07:21:54 PM
Photos:
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 12, 2018, 08:45:06 PM
Rick, that looks super!  You need to use nickel plated acorn nuts on the ends of the u-bolt, as that will look old school.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 13, 2018, 05:13:02 AM
Thanks Rick & I'll have to snag some acorn nuts for that purpose. I got started early this a.m. and have my measurements in mind to cut the rods & tubes for the spring to rocker connection later today. A few bits left to fab & then it's just final fit and assembly, that plus cleanup, paint & perhaps some decorative flourishes. I think I'll just mount it to the bike as if it's already perfect rather than test ride it prior to painting and if I have to pull it back off for alterations and nick the paint. I'll paint it again...satin black is pretty forgiving to apply.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 14, 2018, 04:48:59 AM
This is what I came up with for a leaf fork. I'll put it on the shelf while I work on the hand lever shift and the rear  disc brake conversion/final drive ratio change, but feel I'll have most of this sorted out in the next couple of weeks and have the new fork installed as well.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 15, 2018, 07:21:01 PM
Simplex hand shift lever conversion from a foot shift got a tryout today & while it worked the 5 speed box ok; it needs some refining. The main concern was the shift lever itself being too short & too far forward as well. I think perhaps a longer & curved lever will bring it to hand & allow sufficient engine clearance without extending the lever further out from the frame. The linkage using the Heim joints was fine, just need to size the fasteners & tidy the bits and pieces to insure long term dependability.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Eitek1 on March 16, 2018, 06:45:26 AM
That is just incredible work. I'm amazed at what you can do.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 16, 2018, 10:16:50 AM
Thanks for the kind words. Making things has been & is a great joy. I hope you are doing well & great to see you post up again. Let us know how things are going down in the "big easy".   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 19, 2018, 07:47:43 AM
Bushings for the leaf fork are scheduled for delivery today. If so that should do it for fork parts & I'll make an effort to get that mounted on the Simplex tomorrow. I'm still working on the shift conversion, close but it still doesn't suit me.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 20, 2018, 06:38:46 AM
I've been trying to get ahead of myself...again. I still need to extend, strengthen and close in the girder drop out before mounting the fork to the bike, strengthening, adding length to allow the use of larger tires during the suspension cycle & preventing separation of the rocker pivot from the fork drop out.  I also need to fabricate a band to tie the two longer pack leaves together. I'm again just guessing, but I think these two leaves will adequately suspend the bike. If not I'll tie all three into the pack. I now view the shortest leaf as rebound control/stop. 

I actually let life interfere with working on bikes yesterday.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 29, 2018, 01:07:02 PM
I made a band and roller to keep the two longer (bottom) leaves of the spring pack working together during the complete suspension cycle & lengthened the fork legs about 2" to prevent wheel/tire lockup with the spring pack during spring compression. I also closed the fork drop outs & they are now bolt through's at this critical fork pivot point.

Hope to mount my leaf spring on the Simplex Copper gator & test this week, but still anticipate I'll need some adjustment to get everything working together. Overall length of the spring pack is the area of my greatest concern. I'm thinking it's an inch or so too long to cycle correctly, but that's an easy fix since everything is bolted together and or adjustable in my design. I might also have to tie the third leaf back into the pack as well. Again an easy fix. I was amazed at how easily the single long leaf flexed on the work bench against just my weight, this led me to strap the two bottom leaves together as a starting point for testing. I'm glad I chose the trailer spring pack instead of the snow mobile type that many have used quite successfully on motor bicycles. The Simplex is substantially heavier solo and with the side car attached I think the trailer spring is the way to go...though not yet proven.   Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Eitek1 on March 30, 2018, 06:36:57 AM
Thanks for the kind words. Making things has been & is a great joy. I hope you are doing well & great to see you post up again. Let us know how things are going down in the "big easy".   Rick C.

Thanks Rick, things are good down here. I told my wife "I'm not undertaking on any more projects for people anymore. Once I finish the last one, I'm done... I'm restoring my Simplex." About a day later I get a call from a relative which said "hey, could you help me change out the injectors in my diesel on my pickup". It never seems to end.

That said, I should be moving forward on the Simplex here in the next month or so. I honestly can't wait.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on March 30, 2018, 12:51:21 PM
Loving it, Rick!  I hope it rides as good as it looks.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 30, 2018, 01:19:01 PM
Eitek it just shows you've a good heart & time will eventually be available for your project.  Glad your doing well.

Thanks Rick I mounted the leaf fork this morning, but have a few adjustments left before I give it a test ride. I took a couple of photos but harsh sunlight, cheap phone & lousy camera skills (mainly that last one) prevents having a decent pic to post. I will however post one later today.

Overall I'm pleased & optimistic with this trial fitup & hope to be at the point of taking it off tonight & painting etc. tomorrow if conditions look favorable for paint.  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 30, 2018, 02:16:49 PM
Trial fit up turned out better than these photos & I rode it a few blocks & across the railroad tracks, typically included in my first rides, all without incident. This bike has always ridden well so when I say I it doesn't feel a lot different...means I'm happy. No caliper yet mounted so I cut the test short & pretty slow 30 to 35 mph maybe...rear coaster isn't safe past 20 mph so I'll see what the handling is like after I add the disc caliper up front & I'll start working on rear disc as well.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 30, 2018, 03:10:36 PM
Rick ,

You must have long arms or that shift lever is pretty short . LOL

The set up looks pretty good , even without paint . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 30, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
Hey Pete you preparing for the drive back? I'd be tempted to stay awhile longer in Az. but you're probably ready to move on.

Yeah long arms but not that long. Got lots of projects started and the hand shift is one that's almost though not quite finished. Like the leaf fork the concept works but the details take a little longer, plus once I see that it's going to work I often switch to the projects that pose unresolved issues that are a bit more challenging. I think it's an issue with no longer working on other peoples crap for a living & I'm rebelling on my own crap.

I did straighten out a couple of things on the leaf fork, but I'm a session or two away yet from tearing it down for paint. I took her out yet again and tested the changes. Still felt fine so I'm calling that part good. I have a wheel centering problem that places the rotor too close to the spring leg, it clears but only just and at that the tire is .25" off center...has lots of room on the other side, wheel runs true, so I'll flip the wheel to see if that's any better. I've seen front wheels that were slightly dished during lacing, not a problem if the forks are wide enough or if you run a drum, but this fork is not that wide at the drops. If the flip works I'll have to remount the tire as it's directional, but no big deal. If that's not the problem I can spread the legs enough and run spacers, but I'll have to install a wider axle, this one is maxed out already. Nothing to worry about I've got lots of options. Now that shift lever...   Rick C.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 31, 2018, 08:37:02 AM
Good Morning Rick ,

We'll be in Arizona for another 2 - 3 weeks . That's maybe a bit longer than I care for as the heat is starting to be uncomfortable . Only 93°F today . :D
Then we'll meander East and then North into the New Mexico mountains for the Summer . It'll be Spring of 2019 before we head back to Michigan .

I noticed the rotor is/was a little close to the rocker bolt .
Test rides are what I look forward to , as they usually mean the project is close to being finished .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 01, 2018, 05:29:26 AM
Good call on N. New Mexico Pete, beautiful country. I've spent some time in the Red River, Taos & Eagles Nest area & really enjoy being there. Lots to see and do within day trip range in both New Mexico and Colorado. Post photos from time to time.

Looked the fork over yesterday and took some measurements as well and concluded that my problem is in multiple small adjustments & will just take some time to get perfect. Unfortunately I've run out of multiple thicknesses of wheel spacers in my assortment and have ordered some. Also ran out of hardened thin profile nuts for the rocker bolts and they are real space savers.

I need to also slightly adjust the spring eyelet, maybe a 1/16" to perfectly center and with that I can perfectly square & parallel the actuator rods. If I'm off at that point I'll know adjustment may be needed at the rocker fork pivot. Once all this is confirmed I should be able to center the hub/wheel with the correct hub spacers including the disc brake caliper adapter which normally mounts inside the rocker, but if space is limited can bolt from outside of rocker. A longer hub axle bolt may be required as well.

Building one off forks could probably be considered a project best avoided by the novice fabricator, but once it's been explained I feel most anyone can tackle the job with a high probability of success. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 01, 2018, 09:43:01 AM
I'm definitely looking forward to the mountains . It's been about 40 years since I last set foot on 'high ground' . ;)
I hear the narrow gauge rail trip between Durango and Silverton is one not to be missed .
We've been checking possible camps and have found a couple that seem to be worth a decent stay .
I've been waiting to give my XT350 a good workout .

And , agreed , knowing/understanding what you're doing definitely increases the probability of success . :D

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 01, 2018, 01:33:49 PM
Yes Pete that narrow gauge train ride is a must see & do to believe! Having the Honda along opens the door to some cool exploring & save on fuel at the same time. I've a friend that has a nice vacation home just outside of Red River & that's usually where I stay, but the area is replete with serviced & secure campsites.

Also since it's a major vacation/ski area emergency trauma services are first rate & air transport well organized. Med emergencies happen so it's nice to know that help is available even in the mountains & major hospital facilities are only minutes away.  Lots of fun in the wilderness with full services & security at hand....Rick C.

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 06, 2018, 07:37:51 AM
Forks aligned & caliper installed. Works like a champ. I need to change the quill as the bars ride too high, plus I prefer a quill that you don't have to take the controls off to remove the bars, real PITA. I'll add some shiny's & black paint to finish the front of the bike then move on to complete the hand change lever.

I'll also convert the coaster brake to disc & install a 30 tooth sprocket to replace the 54 tooth that actually makes third my best first gear, though I use second to start out it's actually too low a ratio as well. I have a 44 tooth on the Harley & second is just right for use as first, so it will need a sprocket change at some point too.

All these changes are necessary to prepare the Copper Gator for outfitting as a sidecar, but also benefit the bike as a solo ride. I also like the look but it sure not going to please some, but I doubt the last set of forks pleased the hard core either. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 06, 2018, 10:08:14 AM
"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

Abraham Lincoln

Who do you build these bikes for , anyway ? ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 06, 2018, 12:56:44 PM
I'm completely self absorbed Pete, though not totally unaware.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 06, 2018, 01:21:45 PM
It could be that creativity requires as much . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: oil-lamp on April 07, 2018, 12:53:29 PM
Ok the caliper is for the front wheel. What kind of brakes do you have for the rear?  ???
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 08, 2018, 04:58:52 AM
I'll use the same type 160 mm Avid rotor and caliper that I'm running up front on the rear as well. The rear is currently a coaster & not a lot of help of course. I'll machine a hub adapter to mount the rotor on the pedal sprocket side of the wheel. I built an adapter like this for the V twin soft tail project I'm currently working on as well. The side car I have in mind will also use the same type brake on the car wheel. I've used this front 160mm Avid brake on both the the Simplex (170 lbs.) and six of the last seven motorized bikes I've built and they have performed well. All of these bikes run the old coaster style bicycle hubs on the rear, which on the lighter bikes actually stop quit well at town speeds without using the front brakes, but the added 100 lbs. of the Simplex & my Harley Peashooter require the use of a front brake as well. The Simplex is running 2.5" tire on front and a 3" on the rear, both on 26" rims so I have a pretty good size tire patch to utilize the added braking power of the little Avid's front and rear on the Simplex, but the tires couldn't utilized much more braking than these. 

I have a dual pull brake lever for the front & rear brakes & I'll mount a foot lever on the car frame to operate the "rig" brake when the hack is attached.

All three brakes are mechanical.  Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 23, 2018, 06:53:19 AM
The rear caliper, rotor & adapter for disc braking on the Simplex Copper gator. The rotor is 160 mm & the sprocket a 27 tooth. This fits inside the drops & replaces the coaster brake and a 54 tooth sprocket. The diminutive sprocket is the largest size that can be used with the 160 mm disc setup & the caliper only just clears the chain as it is.

There is quite a bit involved in getting everything to fit and work together, mainly final setup and fitting with a given bike frame/wheel & tire combination. Even though I scratch built the frame for my bike, increasing the height & length, the frame width is close to the Simplex original. This particular brake conversion would be much easier with another 1" between the drops. I've been thinking about a change to a Maxxis rear tire 2.4" x 26" replacing the 3" x 26", but haven't ordered yet. This change would decrease rear tire height from 28" to 26" and really add to the frame and tire clearance for the twin chain lines. I clear without rub, but extra space would be nice. Lowering the rear & adding the more aggressive tread pattern would also change the stance to dirt or sprint bike look I prefer.   Rick C.

 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 23, 2018, 07:07:01 AM
That's a pretty tight setup , Rick .

I'm sure you thought about using a larger rotor .
In any case , the chain lube will have to be some real sticky stuff to stay off the braking surface .

But , it looks good , so far . ;)

Pete . :)

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on April 24, 2018, 05:46:35 AM
I've got a 200 mm rotor as well that would work & yield another 3/4" of chain clearance. I also can option the rear brake setup to the opposite side of the bike (like I'm doing on my V twin build) & that makes a lot of sense, since that pedal chain is seldom employed, if ever, and can be run with dry lube. I do have options on this.

I'm working on changes to multiple bikes this Spring and one change is leading to others, 'kinda fun, but not posting much along the way as some of my modifications have already been changed & that is difficult to follow along with. I'm taking photos that I'll post when I'm certain that change is what works for me...especially with the Simplex Copper gator.

The girder leaf spring is working great, but still needs paint before I post photos.  Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on April 24, 2018, 07:45:31 AM
Always good to have options . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 21, 2018, 05:35:44 AM
I've not posted for awhile, but following as best I can. Good news is my health is much improved, the bad...finally feel well enough to tackle al those home improvements/upkeepI've put off for the last couple of years. All the bike work I've planned & started are about where I left them. I also had a major electrical event at home which fried all my electrical appliances including air and computers etc. I've upgraded all, but I'm only just getting the hang of the new hardware & software. Word to the wise keep a list of all passwords & codes on paper, just the opposite of what I'd been told....I now keep in in my safe deposit box.

The Simplex will be my focus once again. The rear disk brake needs completing & then back on the sidecar frame.

Portland sounded a real treat this year!    Rick C.


Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 21, 2018, 12:45:47 PM
Hey Rick ,

Good you're feeling better . How come you didn't have all those home improvement things farmed out while you were under the weather ? That way you could just jump right back on a bike . ;)
I haven't done a thing with any of my bikes in close to 4 months . 100+ degree temps just kinda takes the fun out of it .
What happened so you could get all new stuff ? Lightening I'll guess . But ???

Pete . :)

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on August 24, 2018, 06:13:44 AM
Thanks Pete improved health really helps. The really big stuff like roofing I farm out, but I really like to handle the lighter work myself & being an optimist I keep thinking I'll catch up on the rest and it's happening. Hobbies are always a distant second to responsibilities in my playbook.

Long story short, lightning & we get a lot of it. I'm surprised that my stuff had survived this long. The bright side is all the new appliances are high efficiency & I can already see a substantial energy cost savings. If I ever get used to Windows 10 the new computer setup is really a major upgrade in speed and storage.


I hope you guys have settled in for the Fall season.   Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on August 24, 2018, 06:48:08 AM
Same here , Rick . The little stuff I like to handle . I've done more than enough of the big things , so now they get paid for . LOL

Indian country is known for it's storms , so it doesn't surprise me . And , don't feel alone about Win 10 . There a lot of folks that are 'struggling' with that learning curve .

As for settling in , we're waiting for the long term winter weather forecast ( due out around the first part of September ). It pretty much determines which way we go for the season .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 29, 2018, 07:05:51 AM
Update leaf fork works great as does the rear disc setup & hand shift lever. I've put in a lot of saddle time on these mods & can't complain. Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on October 29, 2018, 08:38:25 AM
Rick ,
Sounds like you're taking full advantage of riding season , while it lasts .
You have a set of tire chains for that bike ? LOL

We're back in Queen Creek , Az . At least for the holidays , then ???
I haven't had the bikes off the trailer all Summer . It's been too hot . The weather looks to be 'falling' into some nice riding conditions here . Low 80s - 70s and dry , so far .

Pete . :)

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 30, 2018, 08:17:22 AM
Yes Pete getting in a couple of hours riding a day this fall & much of that on the Simplex. I've currently got the rear brake disconnected & am considering a foot brake on the motor drive side. I had a dual brake hand lever operating both brakes & may stick with that, but prefer being able to modulate braking separately.

Hand shift lever on the left side can be employed using either hand, although its tranny shifts nicely without the clutch I normally employ the clutch & shift with my right hand. Feels natural either way.


Arizona is a nice place to be in the fall, especially at the higher altitudes. Got any plans to move camp later?


I'd have a hard time not riding frequently. I like to build & love to ride!  Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on October 30, 2018, 10:37:22 AM
I had a hard time leaving the bikes on the trailer this Summer , but , I'm not riding in 100+° heat .

We're currently a bit over 1400 feet above sea level . That's down a few thousand feet from where we were this past Summer . So far it's very nice weather and much more conducive to riding . :D

As for moving , that will likely not happen until after the first of the year . We'll watch the Winter weather patterns and decide which way to go . Kind of thinking the Rio Grande Valley , but ???

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 30, 2018, 12:49:13 PM
Yeah we're at +-1,300 feet here & it's been beautiful, with periodic rain, but really nothing to hinder my rides all fall.

You've been on caravan long enough to get a read on conditions and of course you know the valley well & it's been a very good winter campground for a long time. I understand that costs are still very reasonable as well. Where ever you land give us an update and let us know how you're doing.

Riding often is a great stress reliever and problem solver...better than the Dr. ordered!

 Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on October 30, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
Agreed , Rick .

Take two rides and call me in the morning . ;)

That's been my problem . I haven't filled that prescription , yet . 
I'm working on the FA50 tomorrow . I have a couple things that need attention and then I'll have to test it , of course .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on October 31, 2018, 06:08:19 AM
Good one Pete! Hope you don't mind me borrowing that feel good one liner.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on October 31, 2018, 07:48:43 AM
Good one Pete! Hope you don't mind me borrowing that feel good one liner.

Be my guest , Rick . :D

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 03, 2018, 09:07:51 AM
Out & about.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 16, 2018, 05:26:20 AM
Rear disc brakes completed with brake lever constructed from an old bicycle kick stand. Next the side car.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 16, 2018, 06:51:57 AM
 Rick ,

I must be missing something . I'm sure it works , but , I'm not seeing how it works .
Maybe I just got up too early this morning .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 16, 2018, 07:22:16 AM
Step down on pedal plate & this rotates the rod (kick stand leg) which rotates the brass bushing attached at rod's end & finally to the brake cable end. The bushing gives a 5:1 advantage & allows a 2" pull to the cable controlling the brake caliper. I used a throttle noodle to attach the brake cable to the frame clamp & ease transition of the cable in that sharp 90 degree bend. Works smooth as glass the brakes really pull the bike down in a hurry. Super fast & easy solution to rear caliper control, once conceived, though quite unconventional I'll admit. Using the 1" tube clamp to hold the affair allowed easy alignment in two planes for trial and error positioning & the spring helps the caliper spring in returning the lever to the neutral position, along with the additional spring aft of the foot pedal. 


Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 16, 2018, 08:02:28 AM
NOW I see . Rotate definitely makes more sense than the push I thought might be .

So , I should refrain from posting too early . LOL

Anyway , nice innovation , Rick .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 20, 2018, 04:39:59 AM
I started my sidecar frame for the Simplex & the torsion spring half axle should be here next week. This to spring the car wheel & I'm going leaf springs on the rear to spring the car body shell. The overall length of the frame is 41" including the leaf springs. Basic frame shown is 20" wide. Completed and attached the car will add 48" total width (hub to frame) to the bikes width. I've thought total weight should be under a hundred pounds for the completed rig but I've been cautioned that light car weight creates handling problems with the car unloaded. Some suggest carrying ballast weight when not carrying a full size passenger. I'll test cautiously during the setup phase, but first loaded (best manners) and gradually reduce the ballast as I become acquainted with the feel of an attached car. I've been studying side car setup for a couple of years now & it's time to put another wheel under this ongoing Simplexish build.


Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 20, 2018, 04:56:37 AM
Basic frame and 18" wheel
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 20, 2018, 07:24:28 AM
Looks like a fun project , Rick .

Definitely keep us posted as it progresses .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on November 20, 2018, 08:50:10 AM
Rick, what kind of fittings are you using for the joints?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 20, 2018, 12:18:13 PM
These are 1" stainless marine tube couplers normally seen on canvas tops and boat rail joints. They use set screws to secure. I see an advantage in using them during design and eliminating weld tacks. I can easily vary the width, length or both and arrange various cross member positions, or add at will.


When the design is complete gussets, plates etc. can be added and welded. The couplers are quite strong but not nearly sufficient in and of themselves for the hack frame. I will leave them in place on the finished frame 'cause I like the look, plenty of structural support will be required to tie it all together.

I'll post a picture of one up close, they are available in T, elbow, various angles etc. I've seen them in 7/8" I.D. as well... end plugs also.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 20, 2018, 12:29:43 PM
Stainless 1"T coupler for tube.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 23, 2018, 06:03:38 AM
I'm thinking about swapping the 5 speed engine on the Simplex for a 4 speed motor (same make and size so a bolt in swap) with reverse for use with the side car. My other option is powering the outside car wheel using an electric hub wheel, reversed, powered with lead batteries (for added car ballast) housed in the car. At this point the car will need to weigh more than I initially considered for good handling (an oxymoron I'm told) with side car attached. I'd like the car to weigh as much as the unloaded bike. I'll need the reversing capabilities in real use situations with total unloaded (combined) rig weight around 350 lbs. I'm leaning towards the electric solution at the moment. Total costs of either project seem about equal.


Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 24, 2018, 04:42:58 AM
Torsion axle came in & I'll cut the hub off today. I'll continue the work on the car frame using the 18" wheel I have in hand, while I do some additional study on using a powered electric hub for the car wheel for reversing function. If I change over to the electric hub I might have to slightly alter the axle height, easy enough to do.

If I opt to go with a 4 speed with reverse gear power. It's a straight bolt on & won't alter the sidecar setup at all. No excuses to delay building the frame with any of my considered options to add a reverse function for the rig. I'm doing this thing as long as my heath remains stable!

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 24, 2018, 06:43:58 AM
Interesting , Rick .

And , lets not give your health a chance to take a vacation . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Bob53 on November 26, 2018, 09:08:46 PM
Rick, this sounds like an excellent winter project. Do you have a link for the 4 speed with reverse engine. This setup could be great for a trike project. I'm still going to make it down the road to come visit sometime. Only 2 hours away, we need to get together. Bob
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 27, 2018, 04:12:15 AM
Bob that sounds a treat, let's pursue a visit.

Now on to trikes and such. I checked Ebay for listings and that particular listing has been taken down. The 250 Lifan and other manufacturers of the Honda CG engines are pretty common on eBay with reverse equipped engines found under atv rather than motorcycle.

The 125 CC with reverse I mentioned was a local salvage atv. 250 cc engines are more commonly used in atv builds..

Have you considered using a go cart reverse gearbox? These can be mated to most 3/4" output shaft motors and 30 series torque converters up to 13 hp & cost about $120. without converter. Forward, neutral and reverse lever and cable type control. Just thinking out loud here. The setups I've encountered seem to function very well and were quite sturdy. 13 hp with torque converter on a trike would be some fun!  Lots of engine options as well. I also think the CG 250 w/reverse a nice selection depending on how you want to use the trike. They make about 12 hp in ATV form...so a couple less than the 5 speed 250 moto version. I don't see that as a problem. Total engine weight is about 80 lbs. and like all trikes that much weight needs to be mounted really low.

I've had such great success with my 125 CC on two different builds that I'm reluctant to switch out what I have for a salvage engine of unknown condition. So I've ordered a 48 volt 1000 watt motor and controller with chain drive to power my sidecar in reverse only mode. The motor could be used for forward power as well, but I can't see a great utility in this, as I'll be reducing by 6 to one with the sprockets I've ordered.


I looked at the powered hub setups, but the wheels didn't inspire much confidence, extremely light weight. I'll just stick with my 18" d.o.t. wheel and speed rated rubber for the extra load carry advantage.

I've been wanting to use an electric motor on one of my builds for awhile now & the sidecar seems an easy entry level electric project and 4 lead cell 12 v. batteries will add some needed ballast to the empty car. I'd like the unloaded weight of both bike and car to equal out at 175 each and I'll probably need an extra 50 lbs. of ballast in addition to the batteries to achieve this balance.


Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 27, 2018, 06:23:30 AM
Bob I've just talked myself into using the go cart reverse gear setup with the electric motor/controller to power the sidecar. I can now see the utility of having a low speed redundant power source for emergency use at slow speeds. Run out of gas or stall in traffic etc. The box provides double the reduction ratio in reverse to that of forward and 2,800 max at the box. I'll be able to keep my reverse speed to a crawl and forward to maybe 10 mph with proper final drive sprockets (without using the huge wheel sprocket). And totally zero arbor spin with the gear selector in neutral. I could alter the controller but not have the same benefits.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 30, 2018, 07:02:09 AM
Well guys I've flip flipped yet again after receiving some expert advice on utilizing electrics properly for wheeled vehicles from a professional with many years experience designing and building dc transports commercially. He actually liked my proposed solution but thought it too complex considering both time and cash expense weighed against the much simpler solution of going to an 1800 watt dc brushless with a 3 way controller with forward, neutral and reverse settings. Frame layout/design is much simplified and all my original goals satisfied for less money. I was able to change and cancel my parts orders before they shipped out and replaced with the 3 way controller and upgraded 48 volt battery pack all of which will provide not only a powerful reverse (with appropriate 54 t final sprocket and 12 t motor sprocket) & the 23" diameter sidecar wheel. and the ability to propel both rig & load at up to 20 mph in forward utilizing just the electric drive. Fully charged the single battery pack should provide travel distance of 15 miles at  the stately speed of 10mph.
The more powerful setup, I've been assured, will provide more reverse grunt than that of the go cart reduction setup I'd originally planned. I'm hopeful!

I'm a complete novice when it comes to utilizing electric power on bikes and I'm opting to follow the advice of someone who has designed and built more commercial electric vehicles than I've ever seen. I'm grateful for his assistence

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on November 30, 2018, 07:28:40 AM
This is all new to me , too , Rick .

I find it pretty interesting . I try to picture it , but , I think I'm still in black and white mode . LOL

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 30, 2018, 10:53:04 AM
Pete as soon as the drive components come in I'll do a basic mock up of frame, wheel/tire, suspension,drive train & dc motor setup photo and that should be a big help in visualization of my design.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on November 30, 2018, 01:44:05 PM
I'd add to an earlier post that forward rig speed (20mph) isn't important because once the rig frames geometry is properly tuned in for road use & powered forward solely under bike engine power, this correct alignment will fight any attempt of the electric drive on the side wheel to move the bike at anything more than a fast walk which is better than pushing by hand in an emergency or to get it out of the way without starting the bike at home etc. Reverse is the primary function and slow forward positioning as well...I'd suppose that an extremely slow ride won't be too strenuous for the operator, but I'll not expect much use of the electric drive in forward. I'd also think tire wear would be extreme.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on December 02, 2018, 05:11:33 PM
Really rough mock up of frame & suspension components.

I've already decided my original dimensions will need altering a bit, although the component layout is about right. Much bracing, plates and welding required...just normal stuff on the frame. Axle plate extension/ dc motor mount will locate the axle approximately 8" above the frame height to keep the center of gravity as low as possible & still maintain 4" ground clearance minimum. The dc motor will rebound with the torsion axle lever's compression and release cycle, being mounted on that lever instead of being frame mounted.

The two half length leaf springs support the rear of the car body. The front of the body may just pivot with the action of the rear suspension, yet to be decided.

Track width 48", car ground clearance 4", car body width 28", car height 24", & car length 80". maximum rig weight unloaded 175 lbs
I've done quite a bit of research on both contemporary and antique sidecar rigs to come up with these dimensions.

The early rigs were powered with around 10 hp or less & a single speed & 3 speed transmission was a latter addition to assist... so I'm pretty sure my little 125 cc 5 speed will power this relatively lightweight rig adequately though I may have to drop the final drive ratio some.

Rick C.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 08, 2019, 11:13:22 AM
Several weeks latter & more than a few trial fit ups with torsion axle and the dc motor & the major change is to just fit the motor on the frame & control the chain with a spring loaded idler & keep it simple. The torsion axle & it's 10" axle extension constructed of 3/4"x3" aluminum bar stock is extremely robust!

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 08, 2019, 11:21:05 AM
Pics
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 08, 2019, 02:38:18 PM
Lookin' good , Rick . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 15, 2019, 05:02:20 AM
I'm testing my fat tire e bike constructed of spare parts & a discarded bare frame. Hub motor kit is new. Thought it an introduction to electrics along with the side car motor I bought. This is an all steel build and heavy, but the 1,200 watt 48 volt brushless motor powers it well, quick but not fast. It is fun.

I'm confident the sidecar rig will reverse well, though I'm doubtful of any real utility powering forward other than short maneuvering & parking.

Rick C.

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 15, 2019, 06:04:11 AM
You don't want to be too fast on the beach anyway , Rick . ;)

It does look like a fun bike .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 15, 2019, 07:28:23 AM
Thanks Pete I'm thinking that I'll eventually put the 3 hp Lifan I have on this one & all wheel/hybrid the heck out of it! I've always thought these fat things ugly, they have a cartoon character about them, and still do but they really ride nice.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 15, 2019, 08:56:43 AM
Agreed on the cartoonishness . But , what ever 'floats' your bike , so to speak . LOL

I wondered why you hadn't tried a rear hub motor along with the front . Maybe the battery pack would be too much ?
The Lifan sounds like it might round out the power package and add some distance , if needed .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 15, 2019, 03:27:42 PM
Yes Pete the dual electric is pretty cool but the reality is a small gas motor is a more economical way to go, given I have the engine and only need a $100. cvt to go hybrid. & end up  with a 3hp gain & an extra 100 miles of range on a bit more than a gallon of gas. Refuel on the road in minutes with gas compared to hours on each battery recharge. I can buy 4 engines for the price of 1 quality lipo pack replacement as well. I got a heck of a close out deal on 20 amp hour 12v. batteries @ .60 per amp hour, so $48. per 48 volt pack...these are new sealed lead cells & I bought enough to build three battery packs. They aren't light at 44 lbs. per pack, but a no brainer compared to typical lead packs at $160. per 48 v. pack & triple that price for lipo 20 amp/48 v. packs with crap for guarantees.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 29, 2019, 05:19:01 AM
I'm waiting on the machine shop for some custom side car parts. Since I sold my shop & the new owners recent passing I'm relegated to waiting for parts...which I'm not really good at. What goes around comes around it seems, small jobs have no sense of commercial urgency.

Fat e bike gets some fabrication time this week and next as I modify the frame to mount the 3 hp Lifan 4 stroke & CVT. All wheel drive, tri-power gas & electric fat tire buggy bike. Absolutely no thought or effort to make this pigs ear into a purse; just function, safely and dependably.

For those interested in my results with the upgrade, of sorts, in batteries. The 48 volt lead cell 5 amp batteries were swapped to 20 amp/48 volt and I've registered two rides over 25 miles with power to spare. GPS average speed on the last one was 12 mph. Twenty five mph seems about top speed on flats, no pedal assist. I'm happy with the lead cells initial performance...long term? The price made my decision easy, for my use, but this isn't a shot at lipo technology and it's very real benefits; just my reality. I'll be using the same lead packs to power the Simplex sidecar as well, though I'm thinking that two packs wired parallel & series gives both the power and extra weight I'm looking for with the side car.

Rick C.




Rick C.

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on January 29, 2019, 07:03:35 AM
I'm not a good waiter , either , Rick . :(
Ironically , I'm one of the best at wasting time . LOL

The "All wheel drive, tri-power gas & electric fat tire buggy bike" sounds like a fun machine .
That might just be the only 'silk' needed . ;)

I think 25 MPH is doing pretty good for a home brew E bike . There's a lot of 50cc mopeds that can't honestly make that claim .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on January 29, 2019, 10:43:44 AM
Thanks Pete. I was happy with anything around 20 mph, My GPS  shows my around town travels average about 8 mph & that's the bulk of it. The addition of the 3 hp motor is multi faceted, based on my use. Extended range, emergency power if juice runs flat and just to be different.

In addition the use of electric powered "takeoffs" will assist the gas/CVT power train spin up quickly to engagement operating speed. This can be a real benefit in stop & go situations where the really low power, gas engines typically struggle to get rolling. Once underway I expect the gas engine alone will reach 35 to 40 mph on flats with the rather high (4to1) ratio final drive & 6 inch driven pulley... if I find a need to hurry. I'll run out of engine before I reach any higher. Speed isn't my goal for sure.

I doubt that the gas engine gets much use, but it will be there if required & it's different!

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 06, 2019, 04:25:08 AM
Lot of stuff happening since last post. Hybrid got sold off after the pull start messed up my shoulder for two months! I've completed the fat tire e-bike and replaced the lead cells with a 48v. 18 amp hr. li-on pack & then converted my mountain bike to electric as well.

So now I'm back on the sidecar project for the Simplex unless another project distracts me & that it seems is pretty easy to do.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 06, 2019, 04:28:04 AM
e-bikes
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 03, 2019, 03:24:44 AM
I finished my hybrid 500 watt/2stroke/pedal board track bike, Hub motor used to start the 2 cycle instead of pedaling. The e hub is also used to power away from dead stops without engaging clutch to feather away from stop signs etc. the small clutch should now last forever. three way power gives options. The 36 volt lithium battery powered hub is good for 20 mph easy. Clutch lockout is simple and fast so overheating at stops or in slow traffic no longer a worry, o as slow as you want with the e-motor. I can now gear up from a 48 t sprocket (needed for dead stop no pedal starts) to 36 tooth rear drive sprocket which will really relax the rpm's at my preferred cruising speeds.

Left and right hand throttles with e-throttle on the left. Learning curve was easy. Two twist controls were once the norm with one controlling spark advance and the other fuel...this isn't something radically different, just new to most.

If I run out of gas or break a drive chain I can now use the front e-hub to get me home and it still pedals as well. Practical no pedal assist e-range at 10 to 15 mph I'd guess at no more than 15 miles...pedal assisted add 5 to 10 miles (depends) It's a 12 amp pack but the bike is now at about 85 lbs. and not a light weight. The modified two stroke puts out  2 stroke puts out 5 hp + so it's fuel mileage isn't great but still manages between 75 and 100 mpg.

Because of the extreme board track saddle location, almost over the rear axle center line, the bike has always been light up front. With the extra weight up front balance has been restored and the bike handles better. All the extra weight of hub and batteries is positioned low and COG is also improved as well.   
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 03, 2019, 03:27:33 AM
Hybrid photos

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on July 03, 2019, 05:55:35 AM
Good thing you don't have anything else to do , Rick . :D

Bikes are looking a bit more complicated , but , still good .

Amazing how resourceful we get as we grow older . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 03, 2019, 06:28:25 AM
Thanks Pete.

Can't be too difficult if I'm doing it... having a bike that I've ridden thousands of miles as a base was a big help on this, as was using the front hub, controller and battery on two e-bike builds this winter and spring. Learning curve flattened out as a result and at least using very similar e-bike components for that part of the conversion to hybrid was kinda' easy.

I've a few cosmetic details to  attend to, tube caps etc, but now I'm just riding with not much tweaking going on save the change from 48 tooth final drive to 36 t. which I'm not positive will be my final ratio. Ride and see how it performs.

This bike has been transformed so many times it's impossible for me to recall the details. A real test mule!

Rick C.


Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: kartjockey on July 03, 2019, 05:21:34 PM
Very Nice!  As I look it over interesting little 'ingenuities'  continue to appear. The creativity of how the front hub compliments easier takeoffs is great.  Less pedaling!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 04, 2019, 03:25:29 AM
Thanks I tend to tinker and the 36 tooth sprocket goes on today for lower rpm cruising now that I've got the hub to bring me up to speed from dead stops. The drop from 48 to 36 tooth is a pretty aggressive modification that may bite me on really long steep hills, but the gas engine is tuned and makes over 5 hp on the small engine dyno so I feel there is a chance this will be a successful change. The e-hub has snail pace covered in town which wasn't possible with the tuned 2 stroke, even running a 48 tooth sprocket. It wants to run!

Rick C. 
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on July 04, 2019, 12:55:21 PM
36 tooth sprocket is a big improvement over the 48t almost no throttle required for flat cruising at 30 mph & no worries or pedaling required on any of the hills around here. Using the e hub from dead stop completely eliminated the need for the large sprocket.  I've installed a new clutch lockout lever & electric cruise up to 25 mph is now both easy and secure, but a new clutch cable will be the next maintenance item on my list. it's 5 years old. I've already tackled the toughest hills in town with just the electric hub and no pedal assist was necessary, but a little pedaling makes a big difference on the speed maintained on these climbs. All hills were tackled from a dead stop at the hills base, so it's golden.

Happy Independence day!

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 07, 2020, 01:14:00 PM
Well thanks to Dave for his work in getting things back up and running. I'd think it will take us all some time to get back in the flow but I feel it's important to have a forum dedicated to the Servi-Cycle and it's devotees.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 07, 2020, 01:24:51 PM
Well thanks to Dave for his work in getting things back up and running. I'd think it will take us all some time to get back in the flow but I feel it's important to have a forum dedicated to the Servi-Cycle and it's devotees.

Rick C.

I second that^ , emotion . ;)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 07, 2020, 01:34:04 PM
What's up Pete? Where you at and where yo heading next?
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 07, 2020, 02:55:39 PM
What's up Pete? Where you at and where yo heading next?


Hi Rick ,

We're doing fine and enjoying the winter . Hopefully you are as well .

Currently we're about 80 miles east of San Antonio . We'll sit here until early to mid April , weather dependent .
Then we'll meander northward through Arkansas , Missouri , Illinois and a night in Indiana , then on to upper mid-west Michigan for the summer .
At some point in that^ travel , we have to pay a visit to South Dakota to take care of licensing . That has to happen once every 5 years , so , we just get it done and get on with the rest of our lives . ;)

How about you ? Been working on any new/old bikes or ??

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 07, 2020, 04:11:34 PM
Sounds like your out around Flatonia  on I-10. I've got rice farms south of there between Victoria and Cuero and another place on the Colorado river just outside Eagle Lake, all those south of I-10. Lot of friends In Gonzales, Luling and LaGrange as  well. Good country. Yeah I've been building some, just staying busy and having fun. Sounds a nice journey in front of you. I'll post a few photos. Real good to hear from you.

Rick C.

Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 07, 2020, 05:34:03 PM
You're close , but about 30 miles off . ;)
We've been to Cuero  , Gonzales , Shiner and Victoria . I don't recall seeing any rice farms , but , I wasn't looking for any , either . LOL
Are your farms on/close to the Guadalupe River ? That runs between Cuero and Victoria .
Agreed . Good country . Gets a bit flat to the south , but ... :)

Pics = thousands of words . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2020, 05:23:30 AM
One on the Colorado river & the other two just a few miles from the Guadalupe. Flat is good for flooded rice production, but doesn't photograph well!

Working on building a 1915 Harley V-twin F head, inlet over exhaust e-motor. I'm putting it into a board track loop frame. It's a fun project.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 08, 2020, 06:29:47 AM
A single photo covers a lot more ground on flat land . LOL

That's an interesting motor . Simultaneous wasted spark fire or rapid 2/1 ?
And , it looks like maybe the fins are not molded to the cylinders .
Then the exhaust ... ported , rather than valved ?

So many questions . But , yeah , looks a fun project .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on March 08, 2020, 02:36:12 PM
LOL 72v. 100 amp powered motor case that adds up to 9.6 hp about the same as the originals pot out but a 100 pounds lighter.

Rick C.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on March 08, 2020, 03:37:29 PM
LOL 72v. 100 amp powered motor case that adds up to 9.6 hp about the same as the originals pot out but a 100 pounds lighter.

Rick C.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/SQRSAJiy3brwY/source.gif) ;)
Still , interesting .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 15, 2020, 03:57:53 AM
Update.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: pd on May 15, 2020, 05:46:15 AM
Rick  ,

It looks pretty good , but , maybe it still needs a little something . ;)

Pete . :)
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on May 15, 2020, 06:14:26 AM
Yep Pete finishing!
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: Ricks on May 15, 2020, 07:23:04 AM
Hi Rick,

Can you give us some more closeups of the engine?  Looks really cool, and no smell i the living room.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: kartjockey on May 16, 2020, 05:33:56 AM
Would love to see this in person .  Cool engine.
Title: Re: Simplex 5 speed build
Post by: ndian22 on June 03, 2020, 04:57:06 PM
Thanks guys I'll post a few photos. This is an 18 month on going project, which I actually chained up and rode for the first time today. It's a long way from complete, but works. Since I sold my machine and welding service a few years back I don't have the DOM tube bender, mills, lathes etc. to work with on a scratch one off build. So I've designed and farmed out the sheet metal and frame work. Sportsman Flyer's  worked with me to turn out a one off version based on a classic loop frame that is used on their  world record holding Bonneville Flyer gas motorcycles.

The sheet metal "fuel tank" holds the lithium battery and the "oil tank" contains the controller.  Both tanks are much larger than on the gas engine bikes, but have the same classic 1915 style. I'll be running drum brakes front and rear, waiting on the rear to be laced up along with a ribbed, bobbed and duck tail steel fender to cover the 3" wide rear tire.

The intake over exhaust F head case is my take on this motor that most of the early manufacturers ran at one point or another.  It's a full size steel case 1to1 so it's really big and it's heavy about 70 lbs. with the electric installed. The standard dimensions used on the Sportsman Flyer  frames were not even close to holding it. The ground clearance is 4"  thanks to the much deeper loop and the engines center of gravity is now several inches below axle height.

Fuel tank battery box with the 72 V. weighs about 24 lbs. not much different than the 3 & 1/2 gallons of fuel this tank size would hold, and the 48v. battery is only 17 lbs. The reason I mention two different batteries is my case design allows me to quickly switch between  motors without changing out and rewiring the multi-voltage controller or taking the big motor case out of the frame. Peak watts vary with these batteries BMS and controller between 3,000 watts and 7,000 watts, with peak watts about double those numbers. 752 watts to the horsepower is a general but not entirely accurate comparison. Peak watts can only be run for short bursts, few seconds. lot of heat buildup quickly. Think of it like going past the redline and keeping it there with a gas engine only it's not rpm's on the electric it's literally component meltdown. Liquid cooled motors  can greatly help but mine are all air cooled at this time.

This is a single speed reduction drive so, for example, the motor I tested today would be limited to 45 mph with the gearing installed, though it can get there quite quickly. It's the smallest motor coupled to a 48 v. 24 amp lithium battery.

I found some drive line issues that need adjusting so the test  today served it's purpose I'll correct these as I await the rear wheel and fender. No idea how long that will be.

I'll sort though some photos and post later, remember it's not completed and things will change.

Hope all are healthy and not to bored by social distancing.

Rick C.