General Category => Restoration Projects => Topic started by: Mo in Mo on May 27, 2011, 11:34:52 AM
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Newbie here, I recently inherited a 1937 from my father that had been sitting for at least 30 years or so. I have got it home and been trying to gather info to start to rebuild it. I contacted Wayne and he was as helpful as he could be. Only problem being he said he has only seen one 1937 complete before, but he was still a wealth of knowledge. He said everything looked original except the compression switch on the motor and possibly the exhaust. Also the clutch cable is not mounted on the handlebar just placed there with tape. Any help would be appreciated on were it went originaly. Also if anyone has a detailed pic of the motor area that would be great. So I can make sure the cables are put in the proper place two of them are off and I want to make sure were they should belong.
I would also like opinions on what I should do with the bike. Should I paint the frame or powder coat it and should I chrome the rims, handlebars and various parts or just paint them. Just looking for what most people have done and what would look better. I'm thinking of getting it running right know and then waiting to completely restore it when I have a better feel for the bike and what I should do.
Thanks,
Lester(http://)
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Hi Lester, that bike is awesome! I don't know anything about the early direct drive bikes, but you could try contacting Bill @ www.servicycle.com. He has several bikes and is quite knowledgable.
Please, Please post more pictures. There can not be very many of these left and it would be nice to see the differences between this and the later bikes.
As for paint vs powder coating, I went with powder on the one I'm doing. I like the look and durability. I powdered everything that was originally black, the only parts that will be painted are the fenders, tank and headlight. I'm also going to have the 3 wheel truck replica that I'm doing powder coated.
I had thought about not completely restoring the bike when I first started also, but as I got into it, so many things were wrong or broken that I changed my mind and just went for the full resto.
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(http://)
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Lester, if you resize the pictures smaller, you can put 4 in each post. If you need help resizing them, let me know. 1500KB is the maximum per post.
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You have a very nice bike to work with. I can hardly wait to see the progress on this build.
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Hi. That one is sweet! It's got a Harley Davidson gas cap I think. I heard the guy was making them with HD caps for a short while. It's also got the nicer forks in my opinion. Do the forks have brass knuckles?
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Thats a very nice original bike you have there, very cool. I think if that was in my garage, I would tear it down, individually clean every part, do a mechanical resto of the engine then bolt it all back together with the original paint. It's only ever orig once, and at nearly 75 years old it is an amazing survivor. The worst thing about it is the wheels, and I bet they'd clean up reasonably well.
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Finally ready to start getting this thing going. I need some help finding a headlight original would be best or something that is compatible any suggestions? I also need an air cleaner any suggestions on that. Just planning on getting the motor running and cleaning it,otherwise I just want to keep as original looking as possible.
Thanks
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I don't know what the original headlight was on the early bikes, but "it was operated by special points in the magneto, while the tail light used batteries." That's all the info I have, that came from Pat Williams old website.
Rick
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Contact Bill Erickson in Illinois (his website is one of thefirst to come up on a "simplex" search). He is currently restoring a '37 which used to belong to Gary Wollard. He can give you some details about the lights.
Mike Sal
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Hi Lester,
Nice old bike, and complet. nice to see these old bikes. and it has a front brake too. Have fun restoring it. Bill Marcum 8)
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It would seem all the early bikes came with the front bike as I have some brochures showing them. Then later they were removed because of the way the front springer responded when they were applied. Does this make sense?
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It would seem all the early bikes came with the front bike as I have some brochures showing them. Then later they were removed because of the way the front springer responded when they were applied. Does this make sense?
Tom, I'll assume you meant "front brake" and not "front bike". When applying the front brake, because of the leading axle position, the front end rises up. Feels weird!
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I think it was more of a revenue generator than a safety thing, as they went from standard equipment to optional equipment (it may have been standard on the late sportsman).
Mike Sal
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So this project has taken me a lot longer then I would have liked. Its torn down and I'm starting to reassemble. I have rebuilt the carb and currently working on changing out the bearings. I plan on using the oven trick. I cleaned up the muffler and discovered it is copper. Is that common? It has the block welded to it for the wires for the headlight so it looks to be original. Is that correct?
Wayne has been very helpful in sending all the parts that I have needed.
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IMHO , it's best to not have a time frame for a project like this . Seems to me that a schedule would take the 'love/fun' out of the effort .
What do you suppose happened to that piston ?
Pete . :)
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Looks like the cylinder had water in it.
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Not sure on water, but lots of built up carbon deposit. Lots of elbow grease and it's shiny again.
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Hi MO, Welcome and what a find. Your's is only the 4th old complete direct I've ever seen. The original headlight was a Miller unit from England that ran off a rear wheel generator. The tailight was battery operated if it had one at all, some didn't. The brakes were Sturmey Archer bicycle drum brakes also from England. Your's looks original. Your lucky to have most of the original parts. Congratulations on the bike it's really special to be in that original condition. Bob
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I'm needing some help getting the crankshaft out of the housing. Is anyone available for a few minutes to talk me through? If so message me and I will give you my number.
Thanks,
Lester
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I think the crankshaft should slip right out after the drive pulley is removed . The pulley has left handed threads .
I see you have the rod removed , so stick a piece of wood into the case from the top to keep the crank from turning . The rod mount makes a good stop .
Put a bolt into one of the holes in the pulley and use the crank as a pivot . I use a long heavy screwdriver .
Hope that helps .
Pete . :)
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Pulley is already off. I need to get the crankshaft out of the housing, to change bearings. Do I put the whole housing crankshaft and all into oven? Should I remove crank from housing first and if so I do I do this without damaging something?
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I have never done an early motor, all my experience is with the late style. That being said, according to the early service manual, once the crank motor pulley is removed, the crankshaft will just slide out. This is the same as a late motor.
I have had some that are stuck pretty good. This is what I do in these cases. If it will not just slide out, I put the nut back on the end of the crank to protect the threads, then tap on the crank snout with a plastic dead blow hammer. If you do not have a dead blow hammer, I would put a block of wood on the crank and hit that with a ball-peen hammer.
Keep us updated!
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Maybe if you shot a bit of penetrating fluid in where the crank meets the bearings , then do that^ .
Pete . :)
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Got it out. Piece of wood and light taping got it. Outer sleeve and bearings came off crankshaft but base is still there so I will need to put in oven to remove along with bearing on housing thanks for the help. Just vary careful with all the motor stuff since not a while lot available for the old stuff.
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Do you have the manual? I believe there are snap rings holding the bearing housings in.
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I've got a manual that came with it. Only has writing, and for motor it says to send to factory and get a new motor for $15!!
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Look in the manuals section. I posted a 1947 manual in there. I believe much of the info in that one will apply to your motor. I don't think they were that different.
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What year was your manual printed Mo?
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Not sure when it was printed its a copy of a original. I got it from someone else who has a 37.
The bearings and seals are replaced in the housing. The bearing at the base of the crankshaft is gonna take some motivation!!! The outer housing and the bearings fell off the shaft, when I removed it but the inner part is not moving. I guess after 80 years its just a little snug. The flywheel had slight resistance I'm guessing this is why. I have sprayed it with some penetrating fluid and gonna wait till tomorrow to see if I can get it off. The wife was slightly angry that the house smelled after baking the engine. I thought the smell would be gone after 4 hours while she was gone, I was wrong!!!
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A Tip: use your gas grill outside, if you have one.
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Mo, once you have all of your components cleaned up for inspection you will want to pay close attention to your rotary valve running clearance. Critical to how easy your engine will start. Check for wear the area in the block it spins in and the O.D. of the rotary valve.
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When you guys put in new bearings, do you pack them with grease. I know you would on normal uses, was unsure in this application.
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So I have been struggling for the last 2 weeks to start the bike. I have had some carb issues (float, needle, jets) and other things creep up (it is 80 years old so its expected). I believe that is all cleared up finally, but the bike will not start. I have tried numerous things. I get a spark when the plug is out of the cylinder. I have then tried to put a little starter fluid in the motor and then try to start it and it wont even fire. I'm next going to check the compression with a gauge but would should the ideal reading be for the bike?
The points may be a little off but since I'm getting a spark they have to be at least opening and closing. When I look through the inspection port they do open and close as designed and I used a feeler gauge to adjust, so if they are off it would only be by a slight bit. Should it be this hard to start a bike that is suppose to be "Simple"
>:( >:( >:(
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I've heard that some have ran on compression as low as 60 pounds . I can't imagine that they would have much , if any , power . The lowest that I've had my motor running is about 80 pounds .
What color is the spark ? Weak reddish or strong whitish blue ?
I suppose it's possible that the points might be a bit dirty . I use a clean dollar bill drawn between closed points to insure clean .
It's also possible that the spark plug is bad and will fire outside the motor , but will get 'blown out' ( so to speak ) when in the compression chamber . In other words , the spark is too weak to do any good or nonexistent . That's not real common these days , but definitely happens . A new plug is in order .
Those are just a few things that might keep the motor from running .
Pete . :)
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These bikes will flood very easily, and then will be impossible to start. To check for a flooding condition, loosen the compression plate cover. If fuel runs out, you are flooded.
What carburetor are you using? What are the settings on the needle valves? Is the carburetor rebuilt?
We need some more information to get you pointed in the right direction.
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The carb is a Tilloston MS 93B. I did rebuild it with the kit from Wayne. The first problem I had was jet was plugged, then the float wasn't adjusted properly (Flooding). Then the needle wouldnt move, since it was new it fit too tight. I have since fixed all of that. It is not flooding now. I have the manual and it said to adjust 1 1/2 turns out on the lean knob and same on the jet. It said after it was running you could then fine tune it.
I have a brand new "old" spark plug. I found someone who has over 10,000 old spark plugs, he is a "spark plug expert," I didn't know one existed but he knew everything about spark plugs.
The spark was blue. I cleaned the points with a business card.
I have been trying to start it in the garage, not running down the street. I have a drill that I have attached to the flywheel nut and spinning it that way. I figured it would be easier to get the carb adjusted that way. Since mine has no clutch just thought I would have better luck getting it fine tuned that way. I could be way off on that approach.
Sorry I didn't include that on the last post. Any other advice on what might be the problem. I have asked a bunch of guys at work and we are all kind of scratching our heads together, which is like one normal person.
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Did you check the rotary valve clearance? What is it?
Did you bore the cylinder and put a new piston in it? If not, is the cylinder round? What is the ring gap?
Take a compression reading and let us know what you get.
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If the spark is bluish , the the points and coil should be good .
A compression test could be telling .
Pete . :)
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Hi Lester, Make sure and check the rotary valve clearance. Bob Kerr here in OK says this one of the problems of the simplex engines. They don't make enough suction to suck gas into the cylinder to run correctly. If this has too much clearance or wear it will make them hard to start and won't develop the power it should. What part of MO are you from. I'm about 40 miles northeast of Tulsa, OK. I've got a few pictures of the early direct drive bikes. Counting yours I know of 5. I have a frame, front end, handlebars and gooseneck, tank, headlight, generator, wheels, and seat. Long way to go. Probably never find an engine. But I'll keep looking. Could you post or send me some detailed pictures of your front and rear brake setups so I'll know what to look for. Thanks, Bob
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How would I check the valve clearance and what should it be? Could I use a feeler gauge like you would for the points?
Bob I sent you some pics of the front and rear brakes, just let me know if you need any further. I live in the middle of the state just outside Jeff City.
I tried to check the compression,but I'm gonna have to attach the belt and go down the street, when the weather gets better. I only got a reading of 20 psi. So I think my drill is not powerful enough. Hopefully that has been the problem all along, at least wishful thinking!!
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How would I check the valve clearance and what should it be? Could I use a feeler gauge like you would for the points?
Bob I sent you some pics of the front and rear brakes, just let me know if you need any further. I live in the middle of the state just outside Jeff City.
I tried to check the compression,but I'm gonna have to attach the belt and go down the street, when the weather gets better. I only got a reading of 20 psi. So I think my drill is not powerful enough. Hopefully that has been the problem all along, at least wishful thinking!!
I use a telescoping bore gauge and micrometer to measure both the bore and the rotator valve.
Like I asked earlier, did you measure the ring gap? Did you check for the cylinder out of round? Did you have it bored and a new piston installed? Need more info.
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The gap is .05 on the piston rings when in the cylinder, according to the manual it should be .04 to .06. When out of the cylinder its .25
I didn't have it bored or a new piston installed, it isn't out of round.
The rotator valve clearance from the housing is .02
I think this is all within range, not sure on the rotator clearance as the manual doesn't say. I will put back together and try running with it to get an accurate pressure reading. Since I only got 20 psi on the tab with the drill method. While the drill seemed like a good idea, I don't think its going fast enough to get a good reading. Which could also mean not pulling the fuel.
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The gap is .05 on the piston rings when in the cylinder, according to the manual it should be .04 to .06. When out of the cylinder its .25
I didn't have it bored or a new piston installed, it isn't out of round.
The rotator valve clearance from the housing is .02
I think this is all within range, not sure on the rotator clearance as the manual doesn't say. I will put back together and try running with it to get an accurate pressure reading. Since I only got 20 psi on the tab with the drill method. While the drill seemed like a good idea, I don't think its going fast enough to get a good reading. Which could also mean not pulling the fuel.
Are these numbers correct, or did you leave out a zero? As in .005 ring gap, and .002 rotary valve clearance? If you left out a number, those clearances are excellent! If not, there is no way it will ever run.
The drill method should provide plenty of cranking speed to start or take a compression reading. This is how many people test these engines on a bench. If you are only getting 20 psi, there is something very wrong. Just thinking out loud here, but did you put the piston in the correct direction?
How do you know the cylinder is round? What method did you use to check it?
Did you put new rings in it? If not, maybe the original has lost its tension.
Did you hone the cylinder?
Don't get discouraged, we will get you pointed in the right direction!
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I had a local machine shop check the round, it hasn't been honed. I did use the old rings. Wayne said the rings he has are not the right size and would require them to be machined down. Which can be done I just wanted to see if the ones in it would work, which could be part of the problem.
The manual said to put the piston in so the side with the angle faces the muffler opening, so that's the way I put it in.
The drill method did claim one cordless drill and almost a second corded drill. The corded drill wasn't a real good one. The cordless was a 18v dewalt but it was a few years old. So I think I still might try the running method
I have attached a few pics of the caliper measurement I got.
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Umm , .05 what ? Always use units of measure .
Pete . :)
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That looks like .050 to me. According to the earliest manual I have, which is 1947, you need .008-.010 for ring gap, which is like paper thin. You have 5-6 times the ring gap. If the earlier used even tighter gap, you are even further away.
You have the piston the correct way.
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Just rechecked the manual and you are correct I was leaving a zero off. According to the manual when new it should be .004-.006 it said if it's over .020 it should be replaced. So looks like new rings are in order.
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Well she is now in pieces and ready to be sent to various places to be painted, powder coated and chromed. I hope they don't take to long!!
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Ok Lester, we need an update! I am really interested in seeing this bike come together. We don't see many early direct drives.
Did you get the motor running?
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Had a little delay. I had a place that was going to do the chrome I spoke with them in December. I called to take the parts to them last month and they went out of business. So I had to find another place. I called and emailed over 10 places only 1 place responded. I guess people don't want/need the work. So I dropped off the parts at the chrome shop today. They said it will take about a month.
I will take the other parts to get powder coated later this week, I hope. So probably another month plus before any more progress. My goal is to make it too Portland this year.
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What parts are you getting chromed? I had my exhaust "manifold" powder coated chrome, while it isn't the same as real chrome I like the way it looks. I may use it for some other parts too.
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What parts are you getting chromed? I had my exhaust "manifold" powder coated chrome, while it isn't the same as real chrome I like the way it looks. I may use it for some other parts too.
I've seen complete motorcycle exhaust systems done that^ way , headers and mufflers . They looked very 'respectable' .
Pete . :)
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Attached is a few pics of what I took. Just lots of little things. I took my rims also, they said they could do them. However it was gonna be $150 a rim due to the amount of work. So I decided to get them powder coated instead. My muffler is copper and soldered to the exhaust flange so I will leave it as it is. I'm just going to clean it really well. I will just have to keep my leg off the muffler as it might get slightly warm!!
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$150 to chrome a rim is cheap! If I had a place around here that would do it for that price, I would jump at it.
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Just got the chrome back. I was like a kid at Christmas unwrapping it all. Now just waiting on the paint and powder coat stuff.
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That stuff looks looks really good! Get that together and come to Portland, Indiana in July for the VMBC meet.
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Pretty , pretty , but for a few grubby finger prints . LOL ;)
Pete . :)
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Glorious stuff chrome. Rick C.
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"Chrome wont get ya Home" But it makes my heart grow fonder! Great looking parts by the way.
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Chrome also helps them find you and your bike down in the ditch easier after the wreck. LOL
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There's^ the light at the end of the tunnel . :D
Pete . :)
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When assembling the front and rear drums with the bearings. Do you fill them up with grease like you would the hubs on a vehicle or just lightly pack them? I'm afraid to pack so much that it spills out into the drum brakes.
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I pack it into the race with the ball bearings, but not into the hub. Seems to work fine for me. No grease leaking out into the brake shoes.
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I did mine the same as Rick . No problems .
Pete . :)
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Well a little progress has been made. I had hoped to have it done by now so I could make Portland. It's looking less likely. The powder coat was suppose to take 3 weeks. It ended up taking 8. The tank and fenders were sent to paint 4 weeks ago. They said it would take 3 weeks. The spokes I ordered from Wayne ended being to big so I had to send them back and still waiting on the new ones. Which I would have known sooner had the powder coat been faster.
I'm trying to climb the molehill but the top keeps getting further away!! I think if I had all the parts, no interruptions and no problems, I could have it together in a day. That seems to be asking to much sometimes!!! It doesn't help that I will be gone for 2 weeks this month. I guess next year is calling my name.
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Frame & forks look fantastic, waiting & $$ are just a big part of the process...hope the tins arrive soon & are to your liking! Rick C.
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So I finally got the tank and fenders back. The 5 weeks turned into 14 weeks. The same thing happened with the frame. I either have bad luck or am not forceful enough on the time line. It looks good, they were able to match the original paint, which is a plus. I have the pin striper lined out for next week. I hope the time line doesn't get extended like all the other items.
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I'm kinda jealous . I believe that's the color blue mine was originally .
Yours has nice shine .
Pete . :)
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Looking good Lester! Hope to see you in Portland next year.
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I would love to see this early ride in person! Meet up with us in Portland.
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All the parts are finally back!!! Now the reassembly begins!
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It's all back together!! Now just need to get it started. When you spin the motor it's fine till one spot where it's really tight. Hopefully I'll get it figured out and get it putting around.
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Beautiful! Now just get it running as good as it looks.
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Man 'o man that's a beauty!! Rick C.
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Beautiful! Now just get it running as good as it looks.
I'll second that^ , but you better turn it right side up before you try to start it . ;)
Pete . :)
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Beautiful! Now just get it running as good as it looks.
I'll second that^ , but you better turn it right side up before you try to start it . ;)
Pete . :)
Pete, what is weird is on my iPad the pictures are upside down in the thumbnails, but self correct when I click on them! On my desktop, they stay upside down.
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I don't know what happened on the pics. I posted them correct and they also turn right side up when I click on them.
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I don't know what happened on the pics. I posted them correct and they also turn right side up when I click on them.
Some programs take pics as they are and some seem to know right side up . How they know that ???
No worries . It's still a very nice bike . (http://www.cb750c.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/thumbsup.gif)
Pete . :)
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Looks Sweet! I hope that even though she is a pretty one that you are building it to be a rider.
You know what they saying:
Ride it! Don't Hide it!
None the less, very nice. :-)
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[youtube]42oOWersDNA[/youtube]
I got the old girl started for the first time!! I took her for a ride for a minute and then it died. I found a small hole in the original copper gas line so time to get a new one. I wanted to keep a few of the original un restrored parts on the bike. So when I get it tuned up I will post a video of the bike running down the road.
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[youtube]42oOWersDNA[/youtube]
I got the old girl started for the first time!! I took her for a ride for a minute and then it died. I found a small hole in the original copper gas line so time to get a new one. I wanted to keep a few of the original un restrored parts on the bike. So when I get it tuned up I will post a video of the bike running down the road.
Seems to run pretty good .
Your video didn't load for me , so here's a link to your YouTube :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42oOWersDNA
Pete . :)
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video worker fine for me. Nice job!
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video worker fine for me. Nice job!
Maybe just this ancient laptop I have to work with . ;)
Agreed , Rick . Nice job , but , we really need to see a lot more of that bike .
Pete . :)
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[youtube]zRvDrZwrVQU[/youtube]
A little late on this video, this was the maiden voyage. It wasn’t pretty just waiting for it to get warm again, so I can get the bike out. It’s hard to ride when the wind chill is below 0!!!!!
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[youtube]zRvDrZwrVQU[/youtube]
That video didn't work for me ???
Here's a link to the YouTube site of what seems to be your video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRvDrZwrVQU
Nice looking bike . I wish I could tell you what it needed to run right .
Pete . :)
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Video works for me. Pete, you computer runs like your bike! Lol
I don’t know anything about those early carbs, but the bike revs up fine without a load, probably a very lean mixture.
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Video works for me. Pete, you computer runs like your bike! Lol
I don’t know anything about those early carbs, but the bike revs up fine without a load, probably a very lean mixture.
Rick ,
You're right about my computer . It was worse , but, I did a few re-grades and now it does run . ;)
Pete . :)