General Category => Restoration Projects => Topic started by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 12:33:27 PM

Title: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 12:33:27 PM
Hauled my Simplex project home last night. It's represented as a '54, serial #17373 as near as I can tell (it's pitted in this area, so not positive). I've got it scattered in pieces after a mornings effort. Spokes are tight, wheels run true, rims: little or no pitting; good sheave; right side fill tank with original paint/decal; no rust in or out but I think wrong tank for the year. Original leather seat with winged Servi Cycle logo embossed (slightly smaller seat than the automatics I've seen; bolts permanently installed before cover). Front fork is descent shape; frame has some damage but repairable (really rather have a better one). All it needs is a little TLC!

Will  
 
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 07, 2014, 12:50:58 PM
Come on Will, no holding out, Post some pictures!
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Gramps on March 07, 2014, 01:07:33 PM
My 56 frame number is 10299 so yours should be laterer than a 56
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 07, 2014, 01:14:10 PM
With that frame number, I would say it is a 1959.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Gramps on March 07, 2014, 01:20:26 PM
I just noticed your handle bar mount has straight sides.
That would indicate it is later than 1954.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 01:33:01 PM
Brake light switch is below the frame rail.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 01:41:12 PM
Check out the seat; same basic shape as the later seat only smaller. What year is it?
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 07, 2014, 02:39:41 PM
Check out the seat; same basic shape as the later seat only smaller. What year is it?

Post a picture of the back of it.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 03:04:18 PM
Here's the back side; mounting bolts were installed before the cover and staked in place.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 07, 2014, 03:11:41 PM
That's interesting.  I have never seen one like that.  Maybe an early seat?
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 03:38:49 PM
Bolts protrude approximately 3/4" so no room for spacers.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: pd on March 07, 2014, 04:03:14 PM
Maybe just my imagination , but it looks like your seat has a belly where mine is dished at the front .

http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?action=attach;topic=956.0;attach=5232.jpg

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcwZ1p0Z/HPIM1578.jpg)
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 04:17:13 PM
It's just the picture. My seat is just a smaller version of the late one.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 07, 2014, 04:43:28 PM
How much smaller is the seat?  According to Wollard's book, they went to the large seat in 1939, and added the wing logo around the same time.  The early seats were made by either Messenger or Troxel.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 07, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
I don't currently have the larger seat to compare with. This seat measures approx. 12 1/2" by 12 1/2", widest by longest.

It's a nice enough looking seat and I wouldn't mind the smaller size but I doubt the leather would hold up too well with a bit of riding. It would probably be best as a display for a collector of original pieces.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: cotton on March 07, 2014, 06:20:28 PM
Will, here is a picture of a 1941 seat and a 1955 seat.  The pan of the smaller seat is just like the one you showed. It has no oblong hole for the bolts. The only way you can get the bolts in is from the top before covering the seat.  Mike, if Paul Treen traced his rump to get the size of the seat, his butt must have grown a lot between 1941 and 1955 - haha   
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 07, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
Nice Cotton.  Did you get the 1941 finished yet?
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Mike Sal on March 07, 2014, 06:34:23 PM
From what I've been reading, the early years had a standard seat, plus an oversize optional seat.  I think the tank & seat he has are from earlier bikes (the first across the board bigger seat came with the G models).  So with multiple sized seats available over the years, it can be hard to nail them down.  I do believe this bike originally had a vinyl covered seat like Pete's.

According to Bob Kerrs records, the frame number says the bike is an early '59 model.  
Mike Sal
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: cotton on March 07, 2014, 07:08:08 PM
No, Rick, I'm no where close yet.  I live about 4 1/2 hours from Portland and hope to have it there this summer. We can always dream....
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Mike Sal on March 07, 2014, 08:21:11 PM
Which direction would you be coming from cotton?  I'm also about 4.5 hours away in southern Illinois.
Mike Sal
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Gramps on March 08, 2014, 10:57:14 PM
With all this discussion about seats I had to dig mine out.
It looks different underneath than the ones posted so I assume it has been recovered. It is fastened down with pop rivets. Were pop rivets around in 1956?
It measures 14” wide and 15” long.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: pd on March 09, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
"Were pop rivets around in 1956?"

 "In 1916 Royal Navy reservist and engineer Hamilton Neil Wylie filed a patent for an "improved means of closing tubular rivets" (granted May 1917).[3] In 1922 Wylie joined the British aircraft manufacturer Armstrong-Whitworth Ltd to advise on metal construction techniques; here he continued to develop his rivet design with a further 1927 patent[4] that incorporated the pull through mandrel, and allowed the rivet to be used blind. By 1928, the George Tucker Eyelet company produced a 'cup' rivet based on the design. It required a separate GKN mandrel and the rivet body to be hand assembled prior to use for the building of the Siskin III aircraft. Together with Armstrong-Whitworth, the Geo. Tucker Co. further modified the rivet design to produce a one piece unit incorporating mandrel and rivet.[5] This product was later developed in Aluminium and trademarked as the 'POP' rivet."

That^ from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet

So , yes they were around in 1956 . Probably not very widely used .

I think your seat cover is a more recent addition , as it seems to have a draw string perimeter .
As far as I know , Simplex never used that type of cover .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Gramps on March 09, 2014, 09:40:20 PM
Very interesting about the pop rivets, thanks. Also you picked up on the drawstring that I hadn’t thought about. With the condition of the material I figured it had been recovered. The seat size 15 long X 14 wide, would that be the largest? In some pictures I have seen there looks to be much larger seats than mine.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 10, 2014, 04:57:49 AM
Very interesting about the pop rivets, thanks. Also you picked up on the drawstring that I hadn’t thought about. With the condition of the material I figured it had been recovered. The seat size 15 long X 14 wide, would that be the largest? In some pictures I have seen there looks to be much larger seats than mine.

Yes, that is the large size.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 19, 2014, 03:37:26 PM
Ok; I have found a better frame for my project; number is 12912. Can someone tell me the year on this one? Thanks so much.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: admin on March 19, 2014, 05:59:01 PM
1956
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 19, 2014, 06:14:56 PM
Thanks Rick..................

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Mike Sal on March 19, 2014, 06:35:41 PM
Will, is it just a bare frame or did it come with other parts too?  Does it have the brake lite switch on top of the right rear lower bar?
Mike Sal
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 20, 2014, 04:01:04 AM
 Bike was a mostly complete roller. Brake light switch bracket on top of right lower frame tube; clip-on sheave; straight side handlebar riser; dual fill tank; no retainer nuts on front spring rods; rib type footboard covers.

Frame has some damage to left crash bar but otherwise, a very good frame with lots of original paint; minimal rust inside tubes.

It's amazing how much rust is inside the lower tubes on most frames. They weren't oiled or sealed from the factory (which I will do); of course, they didn't expect the bikes to still be around 50+ years down the road.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Mike Sal on March 20, 2014, 05:17:14 AM
I can remember seeing a couple of frames in the pile at Gary Wollard's house that had the lower bars rusted completely in half, right behind the motor plate. 
Mike Sal
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 20, 2014, 01:06:07 PM
I just bought six 7/8" cup type freeze plugs to seal the tubes. Once I'm finished with the welding, I will oil the insides well and drive these in with a bit of sealer on them. Should be good for another 50 years; way after my time.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: cotton on March 20, 2014, 06:40:46 PM
Mike you wondered which direction I am from Portland. I live in northeastern Ohio where the high temperature was a balmy 39.  How's that for the first day of spring?!? I also saw those frames in Gary's basement. 

Will, my 41 frame had 2 places in it where water got inside and froze cracking it open. It didn't rust through. I thought about pouring some oil in also.   
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Mike Sal on March 20, 2014, 07:27:51 PM
A couple of things to remember is that in this day & age, the likelyhood of these bikes setting outside in the weather to rust is very unlikely  Most surviving Simplex's are living better now than they ever have in they're lives.  The model T cars are in the same boat.  The progression for most were:

New & the pride of the owner...probably the first car/motorbike they've ever owned.
Somewhat used....the owner has moved on to better things but can still get some of the value in trade.
Back of the lot (or shed)....most of the good has been wrung out of it.
Teenager transportation....kids get them running just good enough to have fun & abuse them.  The end is near.
New again....thankfully it's survived long enough to be found by a collector who brings it back to better than new.

The other thing to remember is a lot of the bikes use the right rear upper bar as the conduit for the tail light wires.  Plugging the tubes will prevent that.

Cotton, I'm a 180 degrees from you in reference to Portland.  I almost wound up in North Canton a few years ago when my former company moved my department there. 
Mike Sal
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: kartjockey on March 21, 2014, 05:36:44 PM
 how about these? look a lot like the originals.  My 1948 has 1/8 holes  at the lowest part of the frame right at the bend on the underneath side.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MINIBIKE-FRAME-CAPS-CHROME-CAPS-MOTORCYCLE-1-MINI-BIKE-TUBE-CAPS-/271427332487?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f32546987
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: pd on March 21, 2014, 06:04:31 PM
Tom ,

Those are close , but not exact . The ebay offering caps seem a bit more flat . Maybe I'm picking nits . You can see OEM frame caps in the rusty nuts pic below .

(http://i.ebayimg.com/11/!CD!pi!!!Wk~$(KGrHqZ,!jIE0G46bj8TBNNI)+ure!~~_12.JPG)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdFzTVp6/HPIM1780-zpsc2f54c7e.jpg)
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 21, 2014, 06:17:46 PM
We might have discussed this before, but my 1949 Model K had corks in all the tubes.  The one for the tail light wires had a hole drilled in it.  Where these factory?
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: kartjockey on March 21, 2014, 06:21:41 PM
My 48 had corks
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 21, 2014, 07:19:28 PM
Most hardware stores have the metal caps as shown and some have them in black plastic as well. I also have noticed several frames with the cork plugs.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: pd on March 21, 2014, 08:20:06 PM
I figure that the caps on my bike were from the factory as they were in the tubes when I bought the bike . I wouldn't think that a PO would have installed them , but I may be wrong .

Pete . :)
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: oil-lamp on March 21, 2014, 08:56:45 PM
I think the corks were used to keep the wires from rubbing on the frame.  The caps I have on mine were old and rusty. I cleaned them up and painted them to match the tins. I am also taking any steel nuts washers or pinion gear cleaning them then blueing them then froglubing them to keep them rust free.   :o
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 26, 2014, 01:20:28 PM
Made a little progress. Pictures of engine mount modifications for the Honda GC190..............
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: old servi on March 26, 2014, 03:29:32 PM
The small seat is exactly like the one on my 46 Servi.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Mike Sal on March 26, 2014, 03:44:19 PM
My '57 has 3 metal caps and one cork (for the wires).
Mike Sal
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: admin on March 26, 2014, 06:30:36 PM
How thick is that steel you are using for a motor plate?
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 26, 2014, 07:03:09 PM
1/4"

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 26, 2014, 07:11:28 PM
Engine positioned very close to final location. Mount holes drilled but plate not welded to frame just yet. About 1/2" clearance, valve cover to tank rail.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 26, 2014, 07:49:08 PM
That should hold up nice.  I did one with a store bought Kart mount that was 1/8" and it just tore from vibration.  I redid it with a homemade 1/4" bolt in and that was much better.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: WillH on March 26, 2014, 08:20:41 PM
The original mount was two 1/8" plates riveted together to make 1/4". I ground the rivets off and took the top section off, leaving the two side pieces welded to the frame. I will weld the new plate to these two pieces. I have the Honda engine as low as it can sit and still be  level to the original engine which was my goal. I have just enough clearance between the valve cover and the tank rail to bolt on the top engine brace. I originally wanted to mount the engine the same distance from the crankshaft to the kickstart shaft as the original, so that I could use the original kickstart pieces without modification but that wasn't practical. It will still work but just a little more tinkering.

Will
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on March 26, 2014, 08:22:26 PM
Looking forward to how you do the kick starter!  Keep us updated on the progress please.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Ricks on August 13, 2014, 07:43:05 AM
Will, any updates?
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Bruce on August 18, 2014, 09:25:48 AM
Curious how things are coming along?
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX Starting my build
Post by: Stevo on October 27, 2022, 02:16:19 PM
Frame fixed with new down tubes and now in expoxy primer.

This is my Simplex #1.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: kartjockey on October 29, 2022, 05:31:54 PM
Way to go Stevo.  They all start with ONE!
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Stevo on November 16, 2022, 12:13:14 PM
My Simplex #1 is now in gloss black paint.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: kartjockey on November 20, 2022, 05:11:14 PM
Nice Stevo!  That is looking nice!
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: Scooter4 on November 26, 2022, 07:36:07 AM
Good morning,
I am glad I read this posting because I dug the corks out of my 49K thinking someone else did that maybe they lost the metal plugs and so I put metal plugs back in.
Better take them out and get some cork.
Scooter
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: kartjockey on December 01, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
yes, my '40 Serviglide has them by the seat. My '48 had them.
Title: Re: PROJECT SIMPLEX
Post by: pd on December 02, 2022, 05:47:00 AM
Now I feel all left out . ;)

My '57 just has the metal caps .

Pete . :)